HBO 2017 CAS Camera Test - My Review

[Nick Morrison]

So was extremely lucky to go to HBO 2017 CAS Camera Test @ NAB and see the best cameras in the world duke it out. Here's my review of how each camera did.

#6 BLACK MAGIC URSA MINI
By far the worst camera in the test, and came in last in pretty much every category. Skintones were harsh. Blacks noisey. Whites clipped. Tons of moire. Colors off. Chroma noise. It pretty much failed every test. Granted its shockingly affordable, but this test proves you get what you pay for.

SUBJECTIVE GRADE: 4 out of 10.

#5 CANON 700
What a huge disappointment. Canon's new vaunted cinema camera looked cheap and old. Only a step above the Ursa. Noisey blacks. Chroma noise. Thin colors. Moire. Not a lot of DR. Looked average, though it's priced and marketed for high end.

SUBJECTIVE GRADE: 6 out of 10.

#4 PANASONIC VARICAM PURE
This is a weird camera. At 800 ISO it was average. Better than Ursa and C700, but still behind the top 3. Noisey blacks, OK DR, ok color. The 5000 ISO feature is very cool though.

SUBJECTIVE GRADE - 7.5 OUT OF 10

#3 RED WEAPON 8K HELIUM
The SHOCKER of the test. This camera blew everyone away. Even industry heavies afterwards admitted this camera is a beast. Went toe to toe to with Alexa 65 on almost every test, and sometimes even won a few. The cleanest by far. Good skintones. Resolution was ideal for stabilization. Best for moire. Good color. It's a beast. Only limitation is lacked DR of top 2.

SUBJECTIVE GRADE - 9 out of 10.

#2 PANAVISION 8K DXL
Powered by a RED 8K Vista Vision sensor, this camera went toe to toe with the Alexa 65 as well. The large sensor is a WOW factor. The DR was great. No moire. Good color and skintone. Cioni, Panavision and RED have teamed up to make an incredible camera. Hats off all around.

SUBJECTIVE SCORE - 9.5 out of 10.

#1 ALEXA 65
This is the greatest camera in the world. The Alexa 65 dominated every test, but was challenged at every turn by the DXL or Helium. That said the combination of sensor size, DR, and color was unbeatable. This camera is spellbinding. But it did have weaknesses:

A) Noise - Alexa 65 occasionally had noise in blacks, and definitely wasn't as clean as Helium (cleanest by far), or the DXL.

B) Moire - Alexa 65 showed minimal moire, but was still beaten by Helium (no moire at all), and DXL.

C) Workflow - some industry folk admitted the camera is very heavy, and the Codex RAW 6K workflow very hard to manage.

Other than that, it'd a spellbinding camera - yes the best in the world.

 

[Thomas Koch]

Very cool to hear. Is this going to be posted anywhere?

 

[Frank Glencairn]

That doesn't sound right

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

So was extremely lucky to go to HBO 2017 CAS Camera Test @ NAB and see the best cameras in the world duke it out. Here's my review of how each camera did.

#6 BLACK MAGIC URSA MINI
By far the worst camera in the test, and came in last in pretty much every category. Skintones were harsh. Blacks noisey. Whites clipped. Tons of moire. Colors off. Chroma noise. It pretty much failed every test. Granted its shockingly affordable, but this test proves you get what you pay for.

SUBJECTIVE GRADE: 4 out of 10.

#5 CANON 700
What a huge disappointment. Canon's new vaunted cinema camera looked cheap and old. Only a step above the Ursa. Noisey blacks. Chroma noise. Thin colors. Moire. Not a lot of DR. Looked average, though it's priced and marketed for high end.

SUBJECTIVE GRADE: 6 out of 10.

#4 PANASONIC VARICAM PURE
This is a weird camera. At 800 ISO it was average. Better than Ursa and C700, but still behind the top 3. Noisey blacks, OK DR, ok color. The 5000 ISO feature is very cool though.

SUBJECTIVE GRADE - 7.5 OUT OF 10

#3 RED WEAPON 8K HELIUM
The SHOCKER of the test. This camera blew everyone away. Even industry heavies afterwards admitted this camera is a beast. Went toe to toe to with Alexa 65 on almost every test, and sometimes even won a few. The cleanest by far. Good skintones. Resolution was ideal for stabilization. Best for moire. Good color. It's a beast. Only limitation is lacked DR of top 2.

SUBJECTIVE GRADE - 9 out of 10.

#2 PANAVISION 8K DXL
Powered by a RED 8K Vista Vision sensor, this camera went toe to toe with the Alexa 65 as well. The large sensor is a WOW factor. The DR was great. No moire. Good color and skintone. Cioni, Panavision and RED have teamed up to make an incredible camera. Hats off all around.

SUBJECTIVE SCORE - 9.5 out of 10.

#1 ALEXA 65
This is the greatest camera in the world. The Alexa 65 dominated every test, but was challenged at every turn by the DXL or Helium. That said the combination of sensor size, DR, and color was unbeatable. This camera is spellbinding. But it did have weaknesses:

A) Noise - Alexa 65 occasionally had noise in blacks, and definitely wasn't as clean as Helium (cleanest by far), or the DXL.

B) Moire - Alexa 65 showed minimal moire, but was still beaten by Helium (no moire at all), and DXL.

C) Workflow - some industry folk admitted the camera is very heavy, and the Codex RAW 6K workflow very hard to manage.

Other than that, it'd a spellbinding camera - yes the best in the world.

Do you know anything about the post work done on those cameras ?

 

[David Battistella]

Thanks for this Nic. Nice tight read. I'd love to see a RED VV up against the DXL just to see how differently a stock car and a race car are tuned.

David

 

[Mike Finegan]

Epic-W Helium not also considered?

 

[Nick Morrison]

Do you know anything about the post work done on those cameras ?

Yes every camera was greycarded. Only adjustments were lift gamma gain.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Epic-W Helium not also considered?

It's the same 8K sensor as Weapon 8K Helium.

They only tested the BEST camera from each manufacturer.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Yes every camera was greycarded. Only adjustments were lift gamma gain.

That doesn't say much.

Based on your interpretation of C700 and Ursa Mini looks like generic post screw up. It tends to happen with new cameras. Whether the results are good or bad, the tendency is to blame or credit the tool for the final image.
Red had the same teething phase with post implementation and got negative feedback many times due to misuse.

You can check Ursa Mini samples I posted in the thread I started in off topic and the results differ significantly.
A lot depends on the last step. These are not video cameras any more and final image is not decided in the factory and today's tests using the same premise as before are in many ways misleading.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Based on your interpretation of C500 and Ursa Mini looks like post screw up. It tends to happen with new cameras. Red had the same teething phase with post implementation.

You can check Ursa Mini samples I posted in the thread I started in off topic and the results differ significantly.

I wouldn't assume this elite HBO team messed up.

Remember, these were tests designed to BREAK cameras. Im sure under normal circumstances most of these cameras would look fine.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I wouldn't assume this elite HBO team messed up.

Unless you personally dig through the gamma/gamut uncorrected raw base colour science signal, when
ever you evaluate a raw recording camera imagery presented on a final colourful image you are always valorizing the last post step as well. Which affects colour, DR and noise properties.

When ever you participate a typical raw recording "camera test" presentation you are actually participating a camera + footage development process presentation. One cannot be separated from the other in a finalized image. It is a highly relative qualification approach inherited from a previous imaging era, where camera choice alone made all the difference.

Everyone can mess up. Especially with minimal experience with the new camera and lack of understanding of its specific signal properties, and especially in a domain with multitude of interdependent variables and significant repercussions for minute mistakes.

With Ursa Mini it is enough to use factory transform to mess it up in a bunch of ways.

Remember, these were tests designed to BREAK cameras. Im sure under normal circumstances most of these cameras would look fine.

I do tons of tests with many different cameras and based on my direct experience with camera analysis and post treatment I can say that Ursa Mini has very good DR. Which is why the question mark above my head on these findings.

Anyone interested in how the latest camera from the ridiculously named company can look can check the off topic thread.

 

[Steven Abrams]

So was extremely lucky to go to HBO 2017 CAS Camera Test @ NAB and see the best cameras in the world duke it out. Here's my review of how each camera did.

#6 BLACK MAGIC URSA MINI
By far the worst camera in the test, and came in last in pretty much every category. Skintones were harsh. Blacks noisey. Whites clipped. Tons of moire. Colors off. Chroma noise. It pretty much failed every test. Granted its shockingly affordable, but this test proves you get what you pay for.

SUBJECTIVE GRADE: 4 out of 10.

#5 CANON 700
What a huge disappointment. Canon's new vaunted cinema camera looked cheap and old. Only a step above the Ursa. Noisey blacks. Chroma noise. Thin colors. Moire. Not a lot of DR. Looked average, though it's priced and marketed for high end.

SUBJECTIVE GRADE: 6 out of 10.

#4 PANASONIC VARICAM PURE
This is a weird camera. At 800 ISO it was average. Better than Ursa and C700, but still behind the top 3. Noisey blacks, OK DR, ok color. The 5000 ISO feature is very cool though.

SUBJECTIVE GRADE - 7.5 OUT OF 10

#3 RED WEAPON 8K HELIUM
The SHOCKER of the test. This camera blew everyone away. Even industry heavies afterwards admitted this camera is a beast. Went toe to toe to with Alexa 65 on almost every test, and sometimes even won a few. The cleanest by far. Good skintones. Resolution was ideal for stabilization. Best for moire. Good color. It's a beast. Only limitation is lacked DR of top 2.

SUBJECTIVE GRADE - 9 out of 10.

#2 PANAVISION 8K DXL
Powered by a RED 8K Vista Vision sensor, this camera went toe to toe with the Alexa 65 as well. The large sensor is a WOW factor. The DR was great. No moire. Good color and skintone. Cioni, Panavision and RED have teamed up to make an incredible camera. Hats off all around.

SUBJECTIVE SCORE - 9.5 out of 10.

#1 ALEXA 65
This is the greatest camera in the world. The Alexa 65 dominated every test, but was challenged at every turn by the DXL or Helium. That said the combination of sensor size, DR, and color was unbeatable. This camera is spellbinding. But it did have weaknesses:

A) Noise - Alexa 65 occasionally had noise in blacks, and definitely wasn't as clean as Helium (cleanest by far), or the DXL.

B) Moire - Alexa 65 showed minimal moire, but was still beaten by Helium (no moire at all), and DXL.

C) Workflow - some industry folk admitted the camera is very heavy, and the Codex RAW 6K workflow very hard to manage.

Other than that, it'd a spellbinding camera - yes the best in the world.

I went to this also and agree with most except some color and ratings. Canon and Varicam looked worse from my seat than even the blackmagic in everything except moire. The Varicam showed more detail than most in low light with iso 5000 but the color got terrible at that point so not really useable anyway. Color was super disappointing on the varicam in every test actually. Color was also worse on the DXL than red (especially some skin) to me which was surprising. The best color for me was coming from red, blackmagic, and arri. Overall blackmagic matched the alexa well in color and feel/look and I can see why so many say it's a great c cam to it. Red was good color but different to those two. Red was just as good as Arri in many ways (just different) except for dynamic range where it was obviously lacking. The dynamic range chart they showed briefly after each scene looked like the red was showing 13 usable stops, 14 or so total and the scene with him walking against the wall from light to dark showed the same. I think it and the DXL actually had the worst highlight clipping look of all cameras shown. And it lost the green color of the liquid in the jar weirdly (but the DXL held it okay).

Overall very disappointed in canon, panasonic, and the DXL compared to what I expected. I expected to like the DXL more than red but I preferred red.

I thought the test was great though. I loved the scenes they shot, especially the steadicam shot going from outside through the kitchen past the bar and up to the band. It was great to see all the mixed sources.

My subjective ratings:

Alexa - 9
DXL - 8
Red - 8.5
Varicam - 7
C700 - 6
Blackmagic - 8.5

 

[Tim Schumann]

Sounds fairly similar to the screening I saw Steven.

Was an amazing test.

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

Sounds fairly similar to the screening I saw Steven.

Was an amazing test.

Was this not a one time thing then? Any chance it'll get screened again? Or maybe even released publicly at some point?

 

[Mike Finegan]

It's the same 8K sensor as Weapon 8K Helium.

They only tested the BEST camera from each manufacturer.

understood - when I first read I was thinking weapon with VV

 

[Frank Glencairn]

Yes every camera was greycarded. Only adjustments were lift gamma gain.

Now THAT explains a lot.

By the way, the Ursa Mini Pro was just awarded "Best Camera on NAB 2017"

 

[Ben Scott]

And the SmallHD Focus won best monitor, I doubt it was though.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Do you think that , maybe, BM and Vitec had something to do with coercing the awards ?

 

[Brody_B]

Thanks Nick. Very much enjoyed the no filler and grounded explanation of your experience of the comparison. A lot of times people here like to just hear themselves type.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Thanks Nick. Very much enjoyed the no filler and grounded explanation of your experience of the comparison. A lot of times people here like to just hear themselves type.

Can you point to the example here, on which you conclude and suggest that people "like to hear themselves type" and are lacking grounds ? Nonsensical babble is counter productive for the discussion so raising awareness helps to avoid it.