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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Having to Grade From Uncompressed Exports?

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JT Thurlow

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Hi there,

We have a project made in Premiere that was corrupted at some point (Adobe support have no idea what the exact problem is with it and say it can't be fixed), which is now causing problems with color correction.

The colorist cannot conform/render the project and now says we have to export uncompressed and then grade the exported file.

I am concerned that this might cause problems with quality or at least be sub-optimal.

I am hoping that if it is possible to at least make RAW adjustments first then export we might be okay? Or is there bound to be a loss of quality? If it should be okay to export I am wondering what format/settings would be optimal?

Any thoughts are hugely appreciated...
 
To give you a better answer, more details are needed. If the final delivery is streaming web that is much different than theatrical distribution, for example.

I would export as 16-bit openEXR if possible. If not, then 16-bit TIFF, for example, and use RLF. These will consume a lot of disc space, but you should be good from a quality point of view. I would start by giving them some sample files to work with and verify the workflow works before rendering everything out. Use full resolution and highest quality debayer if possible. Using 16-bit TIFF will result in 100+ MB file per frame, depending on resolution. Cineform could be a good high quality option.

At the end of the day, the final delivery will dictate what you should deliver to the colorist. If it is 1080p and or web delivery, then you can go a different route. Maybe ProRes is an option. This will produce MUCH smaller files to deliver. Full resolution 16-bit files can be a PITA to work with if you don't have fast storage.

The SDK hands Premiere an uncompressed image to work with. Only difference is that it is done in memory and does not consume mass amounts of storage. :) The SDK can deliver 8, 10 and 16-bit to an application. You can get away with 10-bit if using RLF for example. If using linear or ACES, then 16-bit is a must.

Does the colorist have a preference on uncompressed format? I would start there. Do some tests. The above is all theory, look at some images and decide for yourself. That is what matters in the end.
 
I have used this method for the last 3 projects I've done. Make sure to set the right RAW settings in Premiere before exporting, Color Space, Gamma, ISO, WB, etc. which your colorist + DP should be able to help out with. Personally I have specific settings I use every time for my work. I make sure that all my cuts in the project are down to video track 1. Then I'd export a DPX sequence out of Media Encoder, and hand that off to your colorist along with an EDL from the project timeline. He'll be able to conform the full sequence into the color program he's using and preserve the cuts.

NOTE: EDL only supports one video track.

If you have a cut that you cannot bring down to video track 1, then it will be up to the colorist to add the cuts in manually, alternatively, you can export each track as a separate EDL, which is pretty normal for the conform, I prefer to do the former, personally. I have not had an issue with loss of quality, make sure to render at max bit depth and previews is unchecked.

Also to add on what Stacey said, Premiere won't export EXR as far as I'm aware. If for web, 10-bit DPX out of premiere will be fine, and for theatrical definitely 16-bit tiff. It will all depend on the destination really.
 
What kind of files are you using for the edit in Premiere? If you're using the actual R3D files, then I would look into some possible alternatives for an edit list export out of Premiere and going into Resolve. What if you just export a straight, simple EDL from one flattened layer? This can work, provided it's a simple project with traditional cuts, dissolves, and fades. Anything else, you'd have to do by hand, but it's doable.

If Resolve will not accept any kind of edit list (XML, AAF, EDL) out of Premiere, and you were editing R3Ds in Premiere, then I would ask the colorist which specific file format will work best with their system. My preference for Mac OSX would be ProRes 444 RedLogFilm (using all the original ISO and color temp settings from camera), and on Windows, DNxHD 444 can work.

How long is the project? If it's not hundreds and hundreds (or thousands) of cuts, then the editor could hire an assistant to come in and just rebuild the session in a new file and recreate the list. Barring that, you could just use brute force to hand-conform the project in Resolve. I dunno if Premiere has this ability, but I would create a "reference copy" of the entire project with visible burn-ins of the project timecode, source clip names, and source clip timecodes, just to verify everything is correct.
 
Agree with Marc,
It´s sounds like the problem is not really the different softwares used and their capabilities. As Premiere can export edls, xmls etc and those are all possible to conform from within resolve with little or no fuss if the editor and colorist knows how its done. So if you got an edit inside of premiere it´s possible to get that out of there in many different ways. The only thing to stop that would be if the premiere project file is so corrupted so it can not be opened within premiere it self. Then you would need to eye match what ever reference quicktime you got from the edit in question in a new project and make the edls from there.
 
Björn Benckert said:
Then you would need to eye match....
Click to expand...


Whenever I see the words "eye match" in this day and age it makes me cringe. Can't believe that with all the tech, all the stuff we are told about the need for daily backups,etc. we still end up with these sorts of problems.

Future advice.
-Back up all relevant project files every day.
-keep opening old files until one works.
-once a week make a duplicate and work from the duplicate from that point, until the next week when you make another duplicate.
-don't trust software.
-don't trust hardware

Trust me. You only have to eye match 1 20 minute film to understand why backups are the sensible thing to do.

I know its a bit off topic, I see so many of these threads that can be solved with a tiny bit of planning.
 
David Battistella said:
Whenever I see the words "eye match" in this day and age it makes me cringe. Can't believe that with all the tech, all the stuff we are told about the need for daily backups,etc. we still end up with these sorts of problems.
Click to expand...
Very true. Although... I just had to eye match three :30-second commercials because every single cut was a reposition and a speed change, none of which translated in Premiere's edit list. Resolve just threw up because it couldn't handle (say) reverse motion at 32.7 fps... stuff like that.

There were a few that came through fine, particularly simple 10% or 20% changes. But speed ramps are tough, and reverses are also rough. With a normal project, you might only have a few dozen of these in the whole show. Eye-matching is still a "thing" once in a while.
 
Thanks for the info...

We need a DCP for our festival premiere, which is at a commercial theatre

The colorist is suggesting exporting a DPX and grading that

The media in Premiere is the original R3D files

The Premiere project is not so corrupted that it cannot be opened but there were problems conforming at the colorist's end

The project is an 80m documentary; many, many cuts
 
So you're exporting a FCP7 xml and improrting that in the other end?

I guess if you have done extensive re-timing and other effects in the timeline you'll have an issue.

Exporting DPX seems valid, but unless done to a gradeable colorspace, you'll probably feel at loss.

Not intending to start a new rec vs log discussion. Rather wondering if it works to send the timeline to speedgrade and if that could be an option in this case.

I'd guess the XML works as it should, but that problems were introduced in the edit.

You could test that by exporting xml and re-import it into premiere and see if you get the same issues as your color guy.

Adobe uses it's XMP language to communicate between its app bundle, and that COULD be more robust if the issue is as I suspect it to be.

Another option could be to export DPX's only for those shots where that is needed, which probably would save you a hell of a lot of time.

G
 
David Battistella said:
Whenever I see the words "eye match" in this day and age it makes me cringe. Can't believe that with all the tech, all the stuff we are told about the need for daily backups,etc. we still end up with these sorts of problems.

Future advice.
-Back up all relevant project files every day.
-keep opening old files until one works.
-once a week make a duplicate and work from the duplicate from that point, until the next week when you make another duplicate.
-don't trust software.
-don't trust hardware

Trust me. You only have to eye match 1 20 minute film to understand why backups are the sensible thing to do.

I know its a bit off topic, I see so many of these threads that can be solved with a tiny bit of planning.
Click to expand...

If you have the auto-save function in Premiere available, you'll have this functionality. Premiere is a buggy beast, so I would say that is always best practice.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
So you're exporting a FCP7 xml and improrting that in the other end?

I guess if you have done extensive re-timing and other effects in the timeline you'll have an issue.

Exporting DPX seems valid, but unless done to a gradeable colorspace, you'll probably feel at loss.

Not intending to start a new rec vs log discussion. Rather wondering if it works to send the timeline to speedgrade and if that could be an option in this case.

I'd guess the XML works as it should, but that problems were introduced in the edit.

You could test that by exporting xml and re-import it into premiere and see if you get the same issues as your color guy.

Adobe uses it's XMP language to communicate between its app bundle, and that COULD be more robust if the issue is as I suspect it to be.

Another option could be to export DPX's only for those shots where that is needed, which probably would save you a hell of a lot of time.

G
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info...

So DPX can be fine, as long as the colourspace settings are okay? Not sure if I understood correctly. But it seems that Tiff is ideal? For a 80m project I guess I might be looking at hundreds of terabytes for that?

Exporting XML in Premiere....when trying to import the XML in Premiere it does not open.

Not that it helps now but the project was corrupted at an indeterminate point - I have hundreds of back-ups, comprising innumerable revisions, but do not know which are corruption free. One of countless problems I've had with Premiere.
 
Could you mail me the xml?

groven@mixedrealities.no

(Not promising anything!

What I would try next, was to break the project into scenes.

And copy the edits (not just make a duplicate and remove) from a scene to the new sequence.

I have seen that solve issues earlier on
 
Unfortunately all the media is with the colorist at this moment...he said the only thing we would lose by DPX export are RAW settings (I hope this is the case), so he is making all the necessary iso/kelvin changes then exporting to DPX.

I have had my own problems with the Premiere projects and through the various incarnations of the edit have tried things like breaking it down into scenes but nothing seems to fix it. I could I suppose try this again or in a different way if the DPX method that the colorist is not in fact the best way to proceed.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
OK. If the colorist knows what to do with the RAW files, you are good.


Nthing is lost through the DPX pipe, if it's done properly.
Click to expand...

Great, thanks...

Wondering what are the optimal export settings for DPX for this purpose?
 
DPX exports are crashing Premiere...it seems to be having problems with large TIFF files

Is DNxHD just as good as DPX?
 
ii have seen a few world class bad conforms from PP lately, i am no PP expert, but i did notice that it clips/crushes data, so i had someone who knows Pp to send to SpeedGrade, and rendered DPX from there, all was good

it might be limited PP experience, i have a subscription, but only use it to open up cleints projects to help sort them

any combo of speed + any other effect seems to destroy an XML, EDL leaves a blank hole...
 
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