Guys like this are the ones that are pulling the camera market down

[Joe D'Arcy]

I shoot on my Red three times a week. The image is great (at times mind-blowing) and the camera is easy to manage even without a crew. The camera has paid for itself many times over.

 

[Frank Glencairn]

Hurts the small business production company. Still owe a LOT on the original MXed red one's. We have two, and we cant get out of debt with them. Not one rental in past two months. What's a guy like me supposed to do?

I love them, and use them on all my own projects, but no one wants to rent them any more. Just Epics. Fine and all for those who could afford to make the jump to Epic, but for me, I was still in debt with the red ones, so I could not make the jump.

All in all, the 4k price package for a red one just means I'm really hurting. Not because used ones go for so cheap, but because now so many people have them, and at 4k a package that puts the evaluation of a day rate on the package at around $200 a day. Ouch. That's a lot less than my 1/20th of 90k rates that we used to get.

Don't wanna be the wise guy here, but I'm doing my business in a pretty old school way.
That means I only buy gear, when I have saved enough money, instead of having a credit from my bank.
Running my business, based on hoping that someone else would jump in and pay for my gear by renting it, seemed always risky to me, since they are too much variables that you can't control (as you now experience). Just having one single killer camera coming out can ruin your whole plan.

So yeah, I might not always have the latest and greatest, right when it comes out, but I'm free of debt and I can sleep at night.

For the future, I probably not gonna buy cameras anymore, just renting them when I need them.
With new "game changers" coming on the market every 10 months, it just doesn't make sense anymore.
I invest more in good glass now, cause it really lasts forever, when you tread it well.

Frank

 

[Jean Maurizio]

Sorry to say. But I'm quite sure that the price for RED ONE will fall alot more quite quickly.

The schools will not pick them up as they will be to afraid that the kids will look at them as old cameras. And most private shooters will look at them as to big and heavy, the RED one is built to be handled by a camera team. It's not really run and gun / one person out shooting kind of camera.

And there is so many Red ones out there and now they do not really rent any more, simply because there is newer cameras and the rental companies needs to move on, so when the rental companies does not want to have them on the shelf any more and they do not want them around in a near by school or such, as that would work against them and slightly hurt their market .... So what do they do? Well , they sell them of on ebay for a low price, As the low price make sure it goes quick and not locally... when every rental house does that at the same time it's quite obvious that the price will fall as a rock. Why it's happening now? Well Epic goes dragon Alexa goes Alexa XT... If you rent out cameras you do not want to sit on to many generations, is a bad thing, the old camera takes market from the never one etc.... And remember that the RED ONE is sold in higher numbers than any cinema camera before it so it's super high in supply and quite low in demand. And again, it is a studio camera, and for such use people tend to pretty much only use the latest and greatest simply because the costs for renting a studio, fisher dolly, techno crane, steady cam op and all the rest of the crew is so expansive so then the rental cost for the camera body is the least of your concerns, better then to simply pick the best one possible.

So simply there is no clear market for it any more. Of course there will be skate kids and indy film makers that will buy RED ONE's but I doubt that they are many enough to keep the prices up. And they will look at it and value it against BM, C1, Scarlet and all the other cameras that are much smaller and easier for them to use.

Do not take me wrong Personally I really think RED ONE is a top notch camera and I very much believe it was sold for way to little even when it first came out but that does not change much. Supply and demand is in play, it does not matter what we think of it.

Bjorn, go to Facebook, and take a look at New York Film Academy page. They shoot with Red Ones, there's a very nice photo of it, on top of the page. They do it now, not some years ago. And they are pretty famous, and they have good business.

Then, just think about smaller school...

Now let's play: there's an old and active user here that speaks cheap about R1? Maybe he's buying... Unless he does not sell to some people, and we have proof, he's trying to put the value down, because he's buying. Other people pops up out of nothing, claiming to sell R1 @ $3000? Come on guys, i saw it happens many time in other businesses, it's a deja vu.

 

[Eric M Hurt]

Hurts the small business production company. Still owe a LOT on the original MXed red one's. We have two, and we cant get out of debt with them. Not one rental in past two months. What's a guy like me supposed to do?

I love them, and use them on all my own projects, but no one wants to rent them any more. Just Epics. Fine and all for those who could afford to make the jump to Epic, but for me, I was still in debt with the red ones, so I could not make the jump.

All in all, the 4k price package for a red one just means I'm really hurting. Not because used ones go for so cheap, but because now so many people have them, and at 4k a package that puts the evaluation of a day rate on the package at around $200 a day. Ouch. That's a lot less than my 1/20th of 90k rates that we used to get.

None of these problems are the result of the 4K price point, the market, or of Red, they are a problem of an unrealistic business plan.
Proper research should always be put into a plan before committing vast amounts of money to an endeavor. In this case if the proper research of location, competition, market saturation and of course Moore's Law had all been computed into your plan ahead of time these issues could have easily been seen in advance. It's not extremely complicated, but far too often people are enticed by the tech and either forgo the research or convince themselves that they can beat the house...
It's always hard to put the blame on one's self in these situations, but to do so is a much better way to learn for the next endeavor then to blame those things that are beyond one's control.

 

[egon touste]

the red one can no longer be repaired by red. they say they have no spare parts ..cpus, sensors (different than epics), ssd modules..you name it

I think the price will fall?
they will no doubt hold their value as donor bodies though

 

[Samir Patel]

who said RED does not have spare parts? They said the product was EOL but when they stated that they said they did have parts for repair. I vaguely even remember a post about them working on a batch of SSD modules.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

the red one can no longer be repaired by red. they say they have no spare parts ..cpus, sensors (different than epics), ssd modules..you name it

I think the price will fall?
they will no doubt hold their value as donor bodies though

Can you provide a link where RED communicated this? Perhaps I missed it.

 

[L. Langer]

the red one can no longer be repaired by red. they say they have no spare parts ..cpus, sensors (different than epics), ssd modules..you name it

I think the price will fall?
they will no doubt hold their value as donor bodies though

RED has parts to service and refurbish RED ONE cameras for at least five more years. All those ONE2EPIC upgrades were mostly broken down into spare parts with a few becoming Battle Tested RED ONE product. Accessories are another story all together as they were made in batches.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Sorry to say. But I'm quite sure that the price for RED ONE will fall alot more quite quickly.

The schools will not pick them up as they will be to afraid that the kids will look at them as old cameras. And most private shooters will look at them as to big and heavy, the RED one is built to be handled by a camera team. It's not really run and gun / one person out shooting kind of camera.

And there is so many Red ones out there and now they do not really rent any more, simply because there is newer cameras and the rental companies needs to move on, so when the rental companies does not want to have them on the shelf any more and they do not want them around in a near by school or such, as that would work against them and slightly hurt their market .... So what do they do? Well , they sell them of on ebay for a low price, As the low price make sure it goes quick and not locally... when every rental house does that at the same time it's quite obvious that the price will fall as a rock. Why it's happening now? Well Epic goes dragon Alexa goes Alexa XT... If you rent out cameras you do not want to sit on to many generations, is a bad thing, the old camera takes market from the never one etc.... And remember that the RED ONE is sold in higher numbers than any cinema camera before it so it's super high in supply and quite low in demand. And again, it is a studio camera, and for such use people tend to pretty much only use the latest and greatest simply because the costs for renting a studio, fisher dolly, techno crane, steady cam op and all the rest of the crew is so expansive so then the rental cost for the camera body is the least of your concerns, better then to simply pick the best one possible.

So simply there is no clear market for it any more. Of course there will be skate kids and indy film makers that will buy RED ONE's but I doubt that they are many enough to keep the prices up. And they will look at it and value it against BM, C1, Scarlet and all the other cameras that are much smaller and easier for them to use.

Do not take me wrong Personally I really think RED ONE is a top notch camera and I very much believe it was sold for way to little even when it first came out but that does not change much. Supply and demand is in play, it does not matter what we think of it.

A significant part of the market left out from this analysis includes camera owners or productions which have a need for 4K 12 bit raw workhorse cinema camera which none of the cameras in that price range can replace.

 

[shashbugu]

It's an amazing big world out there. The global business marketplace is expanding rapidly faster than most people on here can imagine. Do your research well before you all make flat out claims.
1. Just check out the Red for rent threads and see how many markets and countries the Reds are available for rent. The movie industries of almost every single country on the planet has been boosted by the advent of Reds, F3, and 5D. But most especially Red. Distributors around the world don't know an epic from a Red one. They are all Reds to them period. The can all tell the resolution difference between an Epic and a 5D. The Chinese and Indian exhibitors are build cinema multiplexes in almost every country, so shot on Red has very high value.
2. Today, Advertising agencies around the World care more about the director, Dop, vex team more than the exact camera used Red Arri, etc. you can't bill based on your gear anymore. This is very different from say 2012, barely year ago. 95% percent of the worlds television system are SD, not even HD. The world is mostly moving to digital terrestrial SD systems which gives them super crisp clear pictures even on a UHD screen. Truth
3. Mobile internet penetration is taking over the developing world. most movie, docs, tv shows etc are watched on mobile screens.
4. The price of a Red One MX is only dropping because of the cost to service and repair it. If after market products, electronics experts and technicians, existed around the world to service and repair Red products, the value will still be extremely high. Real talk
5. For the rental houses, as soon as the dragon becomes widely available you can kiss epic rentals good by. The epics will start selling at the price of a used C300. I won't rent an upgraded epic, but a brand new one, only because the rental price is the same and they will both be available.
6. Even the prices of lenses are dropping faster than anyone could ever anticipate. Manufacturers of lenses can't keep up with the demand. Plus the quality of once mediocre lens manufacturers are vastly improving. It's hard to tell the difference between lenses at T.3. It does not mean jack shit anymore to flaunt a Leica or master prime. Save your money and buy decent glass. Like Ultra primes or cookes. Or even Angenieux ranges.
7. Chinese Hmi light manufacturers are driving prices to the bottom.
8. A C500, BMCC, Sony F5 and F55 to the average DOP/director is in the same range as an Epic. With the same Raw capabilities, DR, ergonomics Etc.
9. If a guy bought a battle tested red one for $4000 plus $4000 in accessories. Made three movies and a few commercials, then offloads the camera for $3000 whose to blame him. He's probably moved on the buy an F5.
10. Consumers have way passed the wow picture quality factor in almost every market and now demand real added value content. Example in Africa a movie used to cost $25k to 50k. Today they are spending over $250k to a million dollars to sat and out in the noises market place. It's the same thing in the South American (Brazil), Eastern Europe, Latin American, and South eastern Asian film industries.
11. If you are not a talented DP in the US, please buy your own equipment. It will help you learn faster. But you'll have to own the whole nine these days. Camera, grip, electric, post.
12. The price of cameras is further being driven down by Davinci Resolve and online grading tutorials. High schoolers are grading skate board videos that look better than most seasoned professionals. Truth! Go watch Vimeo for two hours then turn on your TV. It's like two different worlds out there. Everything on TV looks like it came out of 2010. Such is the nature of technology. If you feel insulted by that comment then, you are most likely part of the status quo.

In conclusion. Go out there and dance.. I buy cameras and gear all the time, but my loyalties have always been with Red, because without Jim Jannard and the crew, I would never be living my dream today. Truth. I would have been a marginalized wannabe artist waiting tables at the IVY by night, whilst packing and carrying heavy equipment on Sets by day. And I'm not alone here.... So before some smart Alec says oh there's nothing wrong with being an assistant an learning from the ranks, I say to you boo hoo. I've been there, done that. In today's market seeing is believing. Go to film school, buy a SCARLET and some used gear sound, light, post, glass etc. Get your most talented buddies from college, make mistakes, lots of mistakes, then Make and sell twenty expressive films and you will find self fulfillment.

Sorry for the typos, bad spelling and incoherent sentences. The world is changing and good grammar is not all that important anymore. Lol. I kid I kid

 

[Jean Maurizio]

It's an amazing big world out there. The global business marketplace is expanding rapidly faster than most people on here can imagine. Do your research well before you all make flat out claims.
1. Just check out the Red for rent threads and see how many markets and countries the Reds are available for rent. The movie industries of almost every single country on the planet has been boosted by the advent of Reds, F3, and 5D. But most especially Red. Distributors around the world don't know an epic from a Red one. They are all Reds to them period. The can all tell the resolution difference between an Epic and a 5D. The Chinese and Indian exhibitors are build cinema multiplexes in almost every country, so shot on Red has very high value.
2. Today, Advertising agencies around the World care more about the director, Dop, vex team more than the exact camera used Red Arri, etc. you can't bill based on your gear anymore. This is very different from say 2012, barely year ago. 95% percent of the worlds television system are SD, not even HD. The world is mostly moving to digital terrestrial SD systems which gives them super crisp clear pictures even on a UHD screen. Truth
3. Mobile internet penetration is taking over the developing world. most movie, docs, tv shows etc are watched on mobile screens.
4. The price of a Red One MX is only dropping because of the cost to service and repair it. If after market products, electronics experts and technicians, existed around the world to service and repair Red products, the value will still be extremely high. Real talk
5. For the rental houses, as soon as the dragon becomes widely available you can kiss epic rentals good by. The epics will start selling at the price of a used C300. I won't rent an upgraded epic, but a brand new one, only because the rental price is the same and they will both be available.
6. Even the prices of lenses are dropping faster than anyone could ever anticipate. Manufacturers of lenses can't keep up with the demand. Plus the quality of once mediocre lens manufacturers are vastly improving. It's hard to tell the difference between lenses at T.3. It does not mean jack shit anymore to flaunt a Leica or master prime. Save your money and buy decent glass. Like Ultra primes or cookes. Or even Angenieux ranges.
7. Chinese Hmi light manufacturers are driving prices to the bottom.
8. A C500, BMCC, Sony F5 and F55 to the average DOP/director is in the same range as an Epic. With the same Raw capabilities, DR, ergonomics Etc.
9. If a guy bought a battle tested red one for $4000 plus $4000 in accessories. Made three movies and a few commercials, then offloads the camera for $3000 whose to blame him. He's probably moved on the buy an F5.
10. Consumers have way passed the wow picture quality factor in almost every market and now demand real added value content. Example in Africa a movie used to cost $25k to 50k. Today they are spending over $250k to a million dollars to sat and out in the noises market place. It's the same thing in the South American (Brazil), Eastern Europe, Latin American, and South eastern Asian film industries.
11. If you are not a talented DP in the US, please buy your own equipment. It will help you learn faster. But you'll have to own the whole nine these days. Camera, grip, electric, post.
12. The price of cameras is further being driven down by Davinci Resolve and online grading tutorials. High schoolers are grading skate board videos that look better than most seasoned professionals. Truth! Go watch Vimeo for two hours then turn on your TV. It's like two different worlds out there. Everything on TV looks like it came out of 2010. Such is the nature of technology. If you feel insulted by that comment then, you are most likely part of the status quo.

In conclusion. Go out there and dance.. I buy cameras and gear all the time, but my loyalties have always been with Red, because without Jim Jannard and the crew, I would never be living my dream today. Truth. I would have been a marginalized wannabe artist waiting tables at the IVY by night, whilst packing and carrying heavy equipment on Sets by day. And I'm not alone here.... So before some smart Alec says oh there's nothing wrong with being an assistant an learning from the ranks, I say to you boo hoo. I've been there, done that. In today's market seeing is believing. Go to film school, buy a SCARLET and some used gear sound, light, post, glass etc. Get your most talented buddies from college, make mistakes, lots of mistakes, then Make and sell twenty expressive films and you will find self fulfillment.

Sorry for the typos, bad spelling and incoherent sentences. The world is changing and good grammar is not all that important anymore. Lol. I kid I kid

+ 1

Very interesting and very well put.

Thank you for your great analysis.

 

[Will Keir]

Well said, thank you for some clarity.

Get your most talented buddies from college, make mistakes, lots of mistakes, then Make and sell twenty expressive films and you will find self fulfillment.

 

[Shane Kelly]

4. The price of a Red One MX is only dropping because of the cost to service and repair it. If after market products, electronics experts and technicians, existed around the world to service and repair Red products, the value will still be extremely high. Real talk


5. For the rental houses, as soon as the dragon becomes widely available you can kiss epic rentals good by. The epics will start selling at the price of a used C300. I won't rent an upgraded epic, but a brand new one, only because the rental price is the same and they will both be available.



11. If you are not a talented DP in the US, please buy your own equipment. It will help you learn faster. But you'll have to own the whole nine these days. Camera, grip, electric, post.


12. The price of cameras is further being driven down by Davinci Resolve and online grading tutorials. High schoolers are grading skate board videos that look better than most seasoned professionals. Truth! Go watch Vimeo for two hours then turn on your TV. It's like two different worlds out there. Everything on TV looks like it came out of 2010. Such is the nature of technology. If you feel insulted by that comment then, you are most likely part of the status quo.

re: 4. Not really, the prices are dropping because of supply and demand. There's a lot of cameras out there and not a whole lot of buyers. As someone said earlier in the thread, Red themselves were the ones who set the $4k expectation for a body.

re: 5. Agree with you on the epic rental market but I don't think that upgraded or new will matter, it's essentially the same camera.

re: 11. Why do you need to own everything?

re: 12. There's interesting (and good ) work out there but there's also a lot of crap on the internet. I'm not defending current tv but it is broadcasting, not narrowcasting and needs to appeal to a wider audience than a subsection of Vimeo. If we are talking about grading then lets talk some examples and discuss why it's better than what's currently the status quo. (maybe on another thread)

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

It's an amazing big world out there. The global business marketplace is expanding rapidly faster than most people on here can imagine. Do your research well before you all make flat out claims.
1. Just check out the Red for rent threads and see how many markets and countries the Reds are available for rent. The movie industries of almost every single country on the planet has been boosted by the advent of Reds, F3, and 5D. But most especially Red. Distributors around the world don't know an epic from a Red one. They are all Reds to them period. The can all tell the resolution difference between an Epic and a 5D. The Chinese and Indian exhibitors are build cinema multiplexes in almost every country, so shot on Red has very high value.
2. Today, Advertising agencies around the World care more about the director, Dop, vex team more than the exact camera used Red Arri, etc. you can't bill based on your gear anymore. This is very different from say 2012, barely year ago. 95% percent of the worlds television system are SD, not even HD. The world is mostly moving to digital terrestrial SD systems which gives them super crisp clear pictures even on a UHD screen. Truth
3. Mobile internet penetration is taking over the developing world. most movie, docs, tv shows etc are watched on mobile screens.
4. The price of a Red One MX is only dropping because of the cost to service and repair it. If after market products, electronics experts and technicians, existed around the world to service and repair Red products, the value will still be extremely high. Real talk
5. For the rental houses, as soon as the dragon becomes widely available you can kiss epic rentals good by. The epics will start selling at the price of a used C300. I won't rent an upgraded epic, but a brand new one, only because the rental price is the same and they will both be available.
6. Even the prices of lenses are dropping faster than anyone could ever anticipate. Manufacturers of lenses can't keep up with the demand. Plus the quality of once mediocre lens manufacturers are vastly improving. It's hard to tell the difference between lenses at T.3. It does not mean jack shit anymore to flaunt a Leica or master prime. Save your money and buy decent glass. Like Ultra primes or cookes. Or even Angenieux ranges.
7. Chinese Hmi light manufacturers are driving prices to the bottom.
8. A C500, BMCC, Sony F5 and F55 to the average DOP/director is in the same range as an Epic. With the same Raw capabilities, DR, ergonomics Etc.
9. If a guy bought a battle tested red one for $4000 plus $4000 in accessories. Made three movies and a few commercials, then offloads the camera for $3000 whose to blame him. He's probably moved on the buy an F5.
10. Consumers have way passed the wow picture quality factor in almost every market and now demand real added value content. Example in Africa a movie used to cost $25k to 50k. Today they are spending over $250k to a million dollars to sat and out in the noises market place. It's the same thing in the South American (Brazil), Eastern Europe, Latin American, and South eastern Asian film industries.
11. If you are not a talented DP in the US, please buy your own equipment. It will help you learn faster. But you'll have to own the whole nine these days. Camera, grip, electric, post.
12. The price of cameras is further being driven down by Davinci Resolve and online grading tutorials. High schoolers are grading skate board videos that look better than most seasoned professionals. Truth! Go watch Vimeo for two hours then turn on your TV. It's like two different worlds out there. Everything on TV looks like it came out of 2010. Such is the nature of technology. If you feel insulted by that comment then, you are most likely part of the status quo.

In conclusion. Go out there and dance.. I buy cameras and gear all the time, but my loyalties have always been with Red, because without Jim Jannard and the crew, I would never be living my dream today. Truth. I would have been a marginalized wannabe artist waiting tables at the IVY by night, whilst packing and carrying heavy equipment on Sets by day. And I'm not alone here.... So before some smart Alec says oh there's nothing wrong with being an assistant an learning from the ranks, I say to you boo hoo. I've been there, done that. In today's market seeing is believing. Go to film school, buy a SCARLET and some used gear sound, light, post, glass etc. Get your most talented buddies from college, make mistakes, lots of mistakes, then Make and sell twenty expressive films and you will find self fulfillment.

Sorry for the typos, bad spelling and incoherent sentences. The world is changing and good grammar is not all that important anymore. Lol. I kid I kid

I do not agree with 99% of what you say. High schoolers with Resolve, for example, do random heavy grading that has nothing to do with the story. Hav ethese highs coolers spent years studying color and art history to learn what colors affect which audiences in terms of subtle effect on emotion and perceptions of characters and so on? I think not.

Any Epic can be upgraded, so why would it sell for less than a C300? Who cares if its' "brand new".

Status quo today is the same as it was 20 years ago - same kinds of people are making money and creating what most people watch, same batch of people rejected by the "old guard" thinks they can make a film in their garage and that people will see it. Market is a bit more fragmented than 20 years ago, but not that much. I don't know anyone who actually watches indy films on Vimeo other than fellow indy filmmakers who represent about 1% of the market and I am being generous.

The developing world constitutes only a tiny market in $$$ for most films, so no offense to many fine people, but I really don't care how they watch things (because most people in the developing world rely in piracy, how they pirate means nothing - would I redecorate my store to please shoplifters?) Here in North America, HUGE numbers of people sit down and watch TV, or sit down and watch films, just like they did in 1993, on the biggest TV they have available, and they still often go out to the cinema. There are reliable statistics to support this. Most TV viewers do not even fast-forward through ads in programs they have recorded.

As far as DPs here in North America, I have yet to meet one who thought an Epic was the same as a BMCC - and such a person would be derided as an appalingly uninformed idiot. I have yet to meet even a director (under 65) who did not fully understand the difference between all the digital cameras, and those who did not know asked their DP, who did understand.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

AFAIK there are "cartel" for everything: cheese, meat, milk, pizza, bread, etcetera. Drug lords in Mexico didn't invent anything. But it happens mostly in food product, mineral water, and everything that is necessary for everybody (also cars and, for many people, drugs). Mobs into camera renting business? That is not really a great market for mafia. The thing is, if tomorrow you go out to beat who rent for less than you, you're automatically a mob, and here's come your statement: someone can be so desperate or so violent to act in that way. But i think no real mobs are interested in camera business (my opinion, take it like a grain of salt, i never knew mobs or mafia people in my life).

The largest rental house in Montreal has ties (alleged , but generally agreed on) with a big Italian family. they make 20 million in a good year renting to Hollywood features. Not a bad business, really.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I think you should mind your own damn bussiness. If there's anyone to blame for the price drop, it's Red themselves. Not some guy on the used market. (incase you're interested, a friend mine will be selling his 4 Red One packages for 3000$ each within a few weeks)

What red cameras sell and rent for are my own damned business, Junior Member Dunkan, and I do mind it. Your friend is an idiot. WHat? He doesn't like money? Why not sell for $8K? WHy sell at crackhead prices? Such a low price would make me think the cams were stolen, would cost him money, other sellers money, your friend is simply stupid.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

In all seriousness, with all these $3000 to $5000 ready to shoot Red One MX in the market, offered by people even with 2 posts in reduser, is there anybody (please, not people with 10 posts) here that bought these cameras?

I'm asking because, if i had a cinema school (or if i was a broker, with cinema schools as my customers), i would takeover 20-30 red one, knowing that i'm fit for the next 5 years. 30 red one for $4000 each, you can win a war with it. One body die? You take the accessories for the other bodies, you take off the SSD module and the mount. How many people out there that need an SSD module for their R1mx?

i think someone is "buying" here, i don't trust all this depreciation. EOL? Sure it is, but only for rental.

You can maybe just get robbed out of $3000 and get no camera at all, for sure.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I do not agree with 99% of what you say. High schoolers with Resolve, for example, do random heavy grading that has nothing to do with the story. Hav ethese highs coolers spent years studying color and art history to learn what colors affect which audiences in terms of subtle effect on emotion and perceptions of characters and so on? I think not.

Any Epic can be upgraded, so why would it sell for less than a C300? Who cares if its' "brand new".

Status quo today is the same as it was 20 years ago - same kinds of people are making money and creating what most people watch, same batch of people rejected by the "old guard" thinks they can make a film in their garage and that people will see it. Market is a bit more fragmented than 20 years ago, but not that much. I don't know anyone who actually watches indy films on Vimeo other than fellow indy filmmakers who represent about 1% of the market and I am being generous.

The developing world constitutes only a tiny market in $$$ for most films, so no offense to many fine people, but I really don't care how they watch things (because most people in the developing world rely in piracy, how they pirate means nothing - would I redecorate my store to please shoplifters?) Here in North America, HUGE numbers of people sit down and watch TV, or sit down and watch films, just like they did in 1993, on the biggest TV they have available, and they still often go out to the cinema. There are reliable statistics to support this. Most TV viewers do not even fast-forward through ads in programs they have recorded.

As far as DPs here in North America, I have yet to meet one who thought an Epic was the same as a BMCC - and such a person would be derided as an appalingly uninformed idiot. I have yet to meet even a director (under 65) who did not fully understand the difference between all the digital cameras, and those who did not know asked their DP, who did understand.

Rob, I don't always agree with you, but this may be one of my favorite posts since I came back from vacation 2 months ago. You had me at 99%. I laughed so hard I actually needed a "moment".

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

lll

 

[Nick Morrison]

Perhaps if you were a bit smarter yourself you'd have recouped the cost of the camera a long time ago instead of having to worry what others sell their Reds for and opening silly threads like these. Someone is having a hard time selling their overpriced kit. and it's about to get alot harder.

First. Rob didn't "open" or start this post.
Second. Rob bought two RED ONE MX's, and they both paid for themselves pretty quickly. Only his Epic hasn't paid for itself. He's been pretty open about that.
Third. Rob spends a lot on gear, and is entitled to his opinion.

My advice is you should get to know the person before you insult them.

Rob may have strong opinions, but they are grounded in fact and are well reasoned. There is merit to that. Baseless insults not so much.

Food for thought.