Group Buy Rules....

[Lee Saxon]

Manufacturers, companies, and distributors of products must be Reduser Sponsors to advertise on the site.

Yeah, I meant once I become a Sponsor. I haven't been able to find out exactly what the rules are for that do you know where those are posted?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Sort of an aside here but it occurs to me that the typical group buy structure is a little backwards. The usual thing here on RU has been to give deeper discounts the more units that are sold; a "tiered" system of incentive. But, people don't usually act for the benevolent interests of the group over their own, so the idea of deeper discounts with more units doesn't really provide any incentive for the individual to act early. It seems to me it would make more sense to provide deeper discounts to those willing to commit early to provide incentive to the individual.

To use an example...

the typical group buy says that if we, as a group, commit to 10 units we pay perhaps $1000 (of a $1100 "normal" price). But, at 20 units we play $900 and at 30 units we pay $800. This is theoretically good for sellers as it provides more total profit even if margins shrink on each unit sold as each tier is reached. But it doesn't provide incentive to any individual to absolutely commit early.

As an individual, I may think that the $800 level is a good deal but am less excited at $1000. Lower is always better when it comes to price. But, I have absolutely no control over whether we can achieve that $800 level other than to pledge my own support. At that point, I might plan to abort if we don't achieve the $800 price or, one alternative is to simply wait to gauge interest until it looks like we might get to the lower pricing. No matter what, interest just isn't going to be as high at the higher price as at the lower price. This may be one of the reasons these group buys with prescribed discount levels fall apart at the end when actual deposits or payments are due. This ends messy for both buyer and seller.

To me, it makes more sense to reverse it. Either have the first x people to commit get the best discount with it going up slightly from there as more people sign on. That is, say the first 10 get the $800 level with the next 10 at $900 and everyone else at the $1000 price. Or, so as not to "punish" those who don't make it into the first group because of the rush of orders, perhaps the seller provides a window of time; within 5 days the price is $800, then for 5 more days, $900, then an additional X days until the end of the GB at $1000.

My own thoughts here are based on my personal experience in looking at a GB where I like the large volume discount but it looks unlikely it'll get there. So, although I have currently indicated my interest, I am unlikely to follow through if the bigger discounts aren't reached. If there are several like me out there, then the end result will be a lot of mess at the end regarding pricing. If several folks drop out at the very end, will the indicated discount still hold - with the seller taking a hit? Or, will the price go back up, possibly causing more to drop out in a sort of "bank run" effect? At the very least, someone is going to be disappointed... or downright pissed.

Not sure if my scenario can be fit into the new GB rules but I am certainly interested in peoples' thoughts on the matter.

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

I don't think that would go over too well Terry. I, for one, would not want to pay more just because I showed up late to the party. Not everyone checks Reduser everyday. I don't want to pay more than the next guy, in the same group buy, just because I was on set that day and unable to check Reduser.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Terry. Not a bad idea considering how well that system works in Kickstarter.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I don't think that would go over too well Terry. I, for one, would not want to pay more just because I showed up late to the party. Not everyone checks Reduser everyday. I don't want to pay more than the next guy, in the same group buy, just because I was on set that day and unable to check Reduser.

Carey - then you might favor the idea of a time frame for getting the better discounts, as I describe above. Your comments don't address the issue of disincentives for those "on-the-fence." You know all too well how messy things can get when people want to start dropping out late in the game. How do you make it work for BOTH the seller and the buyer; creating the proper incentives for both.

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

Carey - then you might favor the idea of a time frame for getting the better discounts, as I describe above. Your comments don't address the issue of disincentives for those "on-the-fence." You know all too well how messy things can get when people want to start dropping out late in the game. How do you make it work for BOTH the seller and the buyer; creating the proper incentives for both.

The same problem exists... people trickle in over time. I get new sales trickling in daily over a long period of time. People on-the-fence should be in, with the freedom to drop out at any time without consequence. The product itself should be incentive enough to stay in the group buy. You should be free to drop out before, during and after the GB and even after the product ships. My 2 cents.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

The same problem exists... people trickle in over time. I get new sales trickling in daily over a long period of time. People on-the-fence should be in, with the freedom to drop out at any time without consequence. The product itself should be incentive enough to stay in the group buy. You should be free to drop out before, during and after the GB and even after the product ships. My 2 cents.

Then I'll ask directly - in the group buy you've arranged, will those who remain in be guaranteed the price level attained by the preliminary commitments? Or, will the final price level be determined by the actual orders/deposits (which would mean the buyers wouldn't know their actual price until after they made their deposits). How does that work in reality?

 

[Lee Saxon]

I don't think that would go over too well Terry. I, for one, would not want to pay more just because I showed up late to the party. Not everyone checks Reduser everyday. I don't want to pay more than the next guy, in the same group buy, just because I was on set that day and unable to check Reduser.

But that's kinda how Reduser works. It's not just the 3rd party group buys, Red itself is huge about early-adoption benefits. I just sorta see that as part of the deal around here.

 

[David Battistella]

Business is always made with the same intention : making money.
I don't see the "charity spirit" in a group buy.

Pat

flip it around Pat,

Reduser is is a targeted user base who can use their buying power to attract deals from manufacturers. Manufacturers (business) want to sell and make money and put as many products into people's hands as possible.

You advertise your fanplate with every post you make and in just about every thread about audio recording and fan noise. so your business might be generating sales and making money on Redusers (I don't think its for any other camera) from REDusers.

But I don't think anyone has asked you to advertise officially on the site?

Because, you know, the bottom line is making money, right?

Maybe be you should have a little group buy and offer a discount.


Battistella

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

Then I'll ask directly - in the group buy you've arranged, will those who remain in be guaranteed the price level attained by the preliminary commitments? Or, will the final price level be determined by the actual orders/deposits (which would mean the buyers wouldn't know their actual price until after they made their deposits). How does that work in reality?

Oh, I see what you're getting at. I've always hit my target in every group buy I've ever done so it never really occurred to me to think about what would happen if I didn't. I'm sure that most manufacturers would agree to honor the discount, even if some people drop out. We are, after all, bringing them a whole bunch of new customers.

The discounts they decide to give us based on number of units sold is a totally arbitrary number anyway.

 

[Lee Saxon]

The discounts they decide to give us based on number of units sold is a totally arbitrary number anyway.

True of the precise number, but not generally. Production cost per unit scales down quite a bit with volume for most manufacturing processes.

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

True of the precise number, but not generally. Production cost per unit scales down quite a bit with volume for most manufacturing processes.

That's what we're talking about here. A few people dropping out here and there. The overwhelming majority of GB participants do not drop out.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

That's what we're talking about here. A few people dropping out here and there. The overwhelming majority of GB participants do not drop out.

That may be true "normally" but I know of one group buy where over 200 people committed and the final tally was supposedly about 70. It does happen.

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

That may be true "normally" but I know of one group buy where over 200 people committed and the final tally was supposedly about 70. It does happen.

I won't let that happen

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Oh. Then that's that. :huh:

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

I think it is very important to disclose the interests of the Group Buy organiser. Recently I have only seen Ketch Rossi clearly mentioning what he is benefiting from the Group Buy. Sadly others don't.

These days people are fighting to announce Group Buys or interest threads even when the product is not in the market and when they haven't tested the product. Not everyone is blessed with good negotiating skills and in some cases if the Group Buy organiser wants to get benefits for himself then also the best deal is not available for redusers. Either way, the buying power of this group is lost.

When 100 people are buying a product, someone should also gently ask the seller to be a sponsor of reduser. I don't know how costly it is to sponsor here, but I feel it would be good if such manufacturers becomes sponsors.

 

[PC Greene]

I think one facet that isn't being fully addressed yet are the benefits and risks relating to GBs involving new or emerging products & technology. While both thrilling and potentially beneficial for individuals & the community, it's also risky to be on the bleeding edge of technology (as we all well know).

Thank you,

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Thanks for posting and clarifying Jarred!

I think it is very important to disclose the interests of the Group Buy organiser. Recently I have only seen Ketch Rossi clearly mentioning what he is benefiting from the Group Buy. Sadly others don't.

These days people are fighting to announce Group Buys or interest threads even when the product is not in the market and when they haven't tested the product. Not everyone is blessed with good negotiating skills and in some cases if the Group Buy organiser wants to get benefits for himself then also the best deal is not available for redusers. Either way, the buying power of this group is lost.

When 100 people are buying a product, someone should also gently ask the seller to be a sponsor of reduser. I don't know how costly it is to sponsor here, but I feel it would be good if such manufacturers becomes sponsors.

Sabyasachi,

We all make mistakes, I know I make them on a daily basis, and actually more and more as each year goes by and I give apologies for it all the time...

But as I have been getting a great amount of Corporate Sponsorships with Gear, I now find it important to also state clearly what is in it for me, and while the Group Buy is not the reason of a certain Benefit I get, when it is I state so in order to give clear understand of what I am getting, but never at the expense of the Community, were I would only do a GB if I see that the community does indeed get a great deal of benefits.

 

[Phil Holland]

Hello friends and fellow Redusers,

I want to add some friendly advice here for all considering putting together or purchasing through Group Buys.

Why? Because I've seen the good and bad that comes with this and have experience on both sides of the "organizer" and "purchaser" roles. I also feel that with the dramatic increase in Group Buys a cautious mindset should be utilized.


A few thoughts, and this is not pointing any fingers, but more notes from what I've observed here at Reduser and abroad on the internet.

- Sometimes Group Buys are put together for products that are still in development.
- Sometimes Group Buys are used as a form of "Crowdsourcing" to help a product even get made.
- Sometimes Group Buys are created by newer companies just starting out.
- Sometimes Group Buys are created with a rather "optimistic" delivery in mind.
- Sometimes Group Buys are from companies that are notorious for missing delivery dates or under delivering on the product offered.
- Sometimes Group Buys are put together for new or old products that have been fully developed or tested.
- Organizing and helping a Group Buy "come true" can be a lot of work. Be mindful of who is on top of things.


On a good day a Group Buy can be a tremendous way to get a good deal on a quality product that is useful to add to your working arsenal.

Reduser and Red have zero involvement in "helping" any Group Buy "come true" and they are not liable for any chaos that may happen due to a manufacturing or shipping delay. Mods have to moderate, but have actual power over products ending up in hands.

Knowing all this, use your best instincts when considering investing in a Group Buy, product, and company. Sometimes it's a major gamble. We've seen similar hiccups and heartbreaks on various Crowdsourcing websites even when projects have been funded to extremely healthy levels.

Get to know who you are buying from and what exactly the game plan is for getting that product into your hands.

Finally a cautious word to Group Buy organizers. Reduser, Site Sponsors, Site Owners, Reduser Mods, and Red are watching a lot of the activity involving Group Buys rather closely. Making sure they adhere to rules and doing our best to keep things from getting out of hand. However, the second they get out of hand will be the second that there will be no more Group Buys allowed on this forum. Which may also reach to other cinematography related forums on the internet. And I'll say this, we are closer to that side of the line than being clear from it. Do your best to do your homework on the product, people, and company behind what you are offering. If things explode you might find yourself in a tough spot from a liability perspective and not have the ability to get out or unattached from a bad situation. When money, other people's money, and external factors are involved it can be your professional reputation on the line. So just take care. Manufacturers want to sell products and make money. Don't be a victim to reckless manufacturing and execution.

Ideally a Group Buy would be a reasonable turnaround time from fund collection to product delivery. Waiting over a 1-3 months is likely a sweet spot from the time a Group Buy closes, with trickier products perhaps a bit longer. Waiting over a year often will produce anger, frustration, and general discontent.

Be careful out there. Spend and organize wisely.

 

[Peter Karlsson]

Isnt it time all the group buys gets their own thread, and the accessories thread gets free of the clutter? There is rarely any point in looking for news among accessories, since they rapidly gets pushed into page 2, 3 and 4 etc.

/Regards Peter K