GROUP BUY: CAME steadycam 2-15kg >1600USD

[David Kellermann]

Just from looking at the footage, I see a couple things that may be happening.

First is drop time is probably too long, which gives it that "floaty" effect. My guess is this was set at 4 seconds, as opposed to the recommended 2-3.

Second is there's too much weight for the arm to hold, so the operator has to put more effort into holding the boom at a certain lens height. The firmer one grasps the gimbal handle, the more shock that will be transferred from the user's body, through their arm, and into the camera. This will not only fatigue the operator quicker, but also introduce unwanted footsteps into the shot.

Thirdly, with the hand that controls pan/tilt on the wrap grip below the gimble, the grip is probably too tight, and overcontrolling the pan/tilt. This will introduce unwanted wobbling and swaying back and forth while panning.

In an ideal setup, stand up perfectly straight. Set the arm boom height to approx where you want the lens to be, so that the boom hand doesn't have to exert too much force in controlling boom height. And with the hand on the post wrap grip, be super gentle in movements, and expanding your hand as much as possible on grip for maximum pan/tilt control, and stretch your pinky out as low as you can to control pendulum effect and for more precise tilts.

Thanks for the info. Truly appreciate it. I would be glad if you could have a look at the modifications we suggested. The Laing will never be a real Steadicam, but we should try to get it as close as possible.

 

[Brett Harrison]

Thanks for the info. Truly appreciate it. I would be glad if you could have a look at the modifications we suggested. The Laing will never be a real Steadicam, but we should try to get it as close as possible.

+1.

 

[Alex Kornreich]

The way I would approach the modifications is by keeping it as simple as possible. The more features you creep in, the more that can go wrong and ruin your day.

The big thing seems to be the ability to run cables down the center post. I wouldn't mess with having the manufacturer putting lemos, hdsdi, etc ports on for you, because doing that is actually more complicated than it seems. Since it's a telescoping post, there can only be a single, coiled cable that has both the hdsdi and power running through it. If not done properly, this can cause significant interference in your video signal. Also, since the internal cable will be hardwired to the lemo and hdsdi receivers on the top and bottom of the sled, it will be way less user serviceable. It also introduces more variables that can go wrong. By having just an empty post, between 1.5 and 2 inches (i recommend 2 inches), it'll be more of a pain to run your cabling, but it will be fully user serviceable, and you can have as many backups as you needs. And due to the budget nature of this, I wouldnt trust them with lemos, soldering, etc.

I'd get rid of the tilt head. Adds another complication to the shot, and almost zero top operators use Tiffen/Steadicam rigs because of it. It also increases the distance of the lens plane to the gimble, which is bad for operating. You want the lens plane to be as close to the gimbal as possible. Also, once again, more moving parts = more things to fail in the field. If you must have it, it must be precisely marked at the 90 degree point.

And definitely yes to markings that align battery/monitor with top stage.

For the toolless adjustment of the arm, Tiffen has put significant R&D into make that possible. Using a tool is not a big deal, and the best arm in the world, the one made by Pro Gpi, reguires a tool.

If you must run power through the post, have 2 lemos at top (focus/camera power) and bottom (monitor/transmitter) coming from battery plate. Keep it a 12 volt system, 24 volt is unnecessary for the types of cameras you'll be flying. And as I said before, be careful of running hdsdi inside with the power. The way operators have done it for years is by running an hdsdi cable from the front of the camera, down directly to the monitor. You wont be able to spin the rig 360, but you never need to anyway. Since my sled hasnt been upgraded to HD yet (it's a $5K upgrade from Pro haha), thats how I do it and it's not a problem. Use spaghetti BNC.

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

Hereis a few things I would check on the system , that are not connected to the operator performance to see if the rig works as it should.

1) when you balance the rig with your bubles , static, and you turn pan the rig 90,180,270 degrees and so on is it still tuned and dead balance at those angles and in between angles? try and do this at 50/50 balance so NO dropping time.
2) Can you get the rig and tune in dynamic balance?
3) try and make a circle arund the gimbal while operating, the camera must stay in the exact direction while your are making a circle around it.
Generally the gimbal is the most importand element and it has to produce NO friction at the needed standards, as well as being made with a lot of precission in all axis so its perefectly balanced.

A poor gimbal will still work with all the flaws you see on the videos, and the flows are many.

An arm with springs and hooks is not exactly what I would go for(saw an early picture, maybe is different now) and you will have a lot of scratch effect sound and motion.
you are also asking for more stronger springs, well they have to see if the arm can get more prelowded first, because everything changes while you keep adding stronger springs.
bearings structure and various components might fail dramatically.
btw at the video shown, the shot description is a very easy shot to pull Iam afraid, and it can be performed in various ways, so any pro op would pull this with one go.
so keep practicing and learn technics of how you turn in sharp corners, depending on your operating left or right side, sometimes its better to step backwards than going Don juan, depending on the side of the turns, etc.

good luck

 

[David Kellermann]

Alex and Konstantinos,

thank you very much for your input. Yes, a single cable would be bad to repair on your own. But if the sled has a diameter of 2", 3 cables should be fine?

I don't need a tilt head. Let's see what other interested buyers think about it.

Cheers
David

 

[Brett Harrison]

Here's a vote for taking on board Alex and Konstantinos's recommendations.

 

[Quentin Devillers]

I personnaly doesn't need the tilt head...
First I thought it was a good idea, but i was thinking about when i could need it.
When i shoot, for exemple, feet walking on the ground, it would be great, but it's better for me to have the liberty to tilt up to the head of the actor...
Plus, Alex is right about the height...

Cheers


EDIT : I've seen that the tilt head looks to be removable, so we can keep it on the package and if one day you need it, you install it... :

 

[Alexander Thomson]

I don't need a tilt head...

 

[Brad Crawford]

don't need a tilt head either.


On an unrelated note: I bet this guy would make a pretty awesome steadicam operator...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2MXMZ9Cj0ys#t=491s

 

[Ryan Nichols]

I'd like on the list as well.

Please keep me updated.

 

[Alex Kornreich]

Alex and Konstantinos,

thank you very much for your input. Yes, a single cable would be bad to repair on your own. But if the sled has a diameter of 2", 3 cables should be fine?

What adds the complication is the telescoping post. If the power and lemos are built in, it'll have to be a tightly coiled cable, which would leave little to no room for any others. If you leave the post empty, you'll be able get by without anything fixed and coiled, and can adjust the length of the internal cables by just picking up the slack at the bottom of the sled and wrapping it around the monitor mount or something.

The best solution is 1 hdsdi port and 2 lemo on top and bottom, I'm just not convinced this manufacturer is capable of doing that reliably without any interference issues, and it takes away a whole lot of user serviceability.

 

[Dustin Sims]

I'd like to get in on this as well

 

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

On the tilt head issue, I would like to do some shots inside a lighthouse spiral staircase where the subject is being followed from above and below. I have no prior steadicam experience, but I imagine that such a shot would be easier to obtain with a tilted head. Am I wrong about that? Aside from Alex's observations about distance from camera COG to gimbal, what are the drawbacks to a tiltable head as long as the degree markings are accurate and it locks very securely?

 

[Tyler Bourns]

I also would like to see the tilt head stay as long as it doesn't negatively affect the rig and has accurate markings. I can see it being useful in certain situations...

 

[Chris Poynton]

On the tilt head issue, I would like to do some shots inside a lighthouse spiral staircase where the subject is being followed from above and below. I have no prior steadicam experience, but I imagine that such a shot would be easier to obtain with a tilted head. Am I wrong about that? Aside from Alex's observations about distance from camera COG to gimbal, what are the drawbacks to a tiltable head as long as the degree markings are accurate and it locks very securely?

I posed similar and extended set of questions to Alex, and he said it was fine to re-post the answers here ... Many thanks ALex! Great to hear from a real Steadicam op!!! :

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ALEX KORNREICH (3/3/12) emphasis added:

There's two main reasons why you want the lens plane as close to the gimbal.

The first reason is that the higher it is, the more "arc" there is to the tilt. In an ideal world the camera tilts on it's nodal point, like a lot of remote heads on cranes do. But since it's impossible on a steadicam to make that happen, getting as close as possible is important.

The second reason, and almost as important, is that FOR EVERY INCH THE WEIGHT IS ABOVE THE GIMBAL, THERE NEEDS TO BE 2.5 TO 4 INCHES OF EXTRA TELESCOPING ON THE BOTTOM SECTION OF THE POST TO OFFSET THE WEIGHT, AND ACHIEVE PROPER DROP TIME. For example, if the weight is 3 inches above gimbal, you may need only 10 inches of extension on the bottom portion of sled. But if it's 6 inches, then youll need 30 inches of extension. Operators like to have the smallest rig possible for the most control, so if you have the weight significantly higher than the gimbal, you'll need way more extension on the bottom, therefore making the sled very long.

And yes, you can add extra weight to offset the length of the sled, to keep it shorter, but then you'll run into arm capacity problems.

Regarding how often you'll need a tilt head, I personally have never even thought that it would be helpful, so I'd say you'd use it 0% of the time. The only time it may be helpful is in super low mode, looking up at someone's head, but that shot rarely, if ever, happens ....

Going back to tilt stage, the idea behind it is you can maintain dynamic balance why still having the camera tilted. The problem, especially of you're not experienced, is that to be good operator you need to develop a certain feel for how the post grip feels in your hands, and how that relates to lens position. For instance, I can close my eyes and know that my sled is upright and level. It's like putting in golf, you develop a certain feel for it. When you add a tilt stage, it throws of your feel in relation to where the lens is actually pointing, since depending on how much it's tilted, it changes every time. Experienced ops may get good at it and like it, but I know of very few, if any. Having a feel for the sled and knowing instinctively where the lens is pointing is more important than maintaining dynamic balance.

QUOTE ENDS

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Great points from Alex regarding the crucial play-off between having the tilt head and requiring longer sled lengths to compensate.

If you want shortest possible sled for 95%+ of your shots, leave the tilt head out of the equation. Personally, I think Laing purchasers could have the best of both worlds for exciting experimental angles if you can spare the time to set up the tilt-head for special shots, or if you are willing to live with extra length of the sled leaving it on permanently. The tilt head looks to be only a matter of a few extra CNC plates, so will not affect the package price significantly if it is included or not.

Tilt head change-over is conditional upon: 1) the head can be easily detached/re-attached (i.e. it is not glued, does not interfering with cable runs, etc) ... 2) that the docking collar can easily be moved up and down a bit as well to compensate and to actually meet the actual height of the head/stage ... 3) that the instructions for attachment/detachment are simple and doesn't take longer than a few minutes... 4) and that there is NO PLAY in the tilt head with heavy cameras at radical angles.

Some minor detail and discussion about Alex's first point about the camera rolling further in an arc when the camera is further from the gimbal (i.e. with the tilt-head in place and set to horizontal for standard shooting) ... I am not sure how important that is in terms of actual results on screen. If the post rolls 5% off vertical, say during cornering motion, the camera base will be 5% off horizontal regardless of whether the camera is 3 inches or 10 inches above the gimbal. The difference of course is that the camera is moving further laterally by a few inches if it is further away from the gimbal. For the distance and motion of most subjects (excluding very tight, very close or precise CGI/green screen composites?) I don't see this extra dimension of minor lens motion being a huge issue. It is surely akin to pushing the gimbal a few inches through space to the left or right ... do you see a difference on screen? (Let alone if the camera is rolling/yawing as well?) Am I missing something here in my geometry? An early DIY stabiliser I built had the lens 10 inches above the gimbal and roll motion didn't seem to be extra distracting.) Sorry if this seems bogging down in too much detail.

Viva la Tilt Head! I would LOVE to shoot with it for low mode variations and architectural shots (exactly like the spiral staircase example that Elizabeth suggested in her original post). I say go for it! Leave the tilt-head off if you want.

 

[Dustin Hoye]

Please add me to the list. Thanks.

Dustin

 

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

Thanks for that post, Chris, and thanks to Alex for his thorough treatment of the issue. Sorry I missed his comments elsewhere.

I agree with you, Chris. If it's possible to get two heads, one fixed that keeps the camera as close to the gimbal as possible, and a tiltable one as shown on the CAME website, that would be the best of both worlds. Perhaps the best way to implement this is to make the basic group buy product a fixed head with an add on option for the tilt head. The tilt head appears to be the one on the existing product, so it would probably require very little redesign to offer as an option.

 

[Alex Kornreich]

On the tilt head issue, I would like to do some shots inside a lighthouse spiral staircase where the subject is being followed from above and below. I have no prior steadicam experience, but I imagine that such a shot would be easier to obtain with a tilted head. Am I wrong about that? Aside from Alex's observations about distance from camera COG to gimbal, what are the drawbacks to a tiltable head as long as the degree markings are accurate and it locks very securely?

To do this is quite easy without a tilt stage. Just balance the fore/aft of the camera so the top stage is back heavy, and naturally floats at the degree of tilt you need, so the sled may float near horizontal. There's nothing wrong with doing that. Always balance for the particular shot (ie trim for headroom, following people up/down stairs, etc.). With the tilt stage the relation of the lens to your hand becomes skewed, and it's difficult to gain a feel for the sled and lens position.

And just a disclaimer, im obviously an opponent of tilt stages, but there are some ops who use tiffen rigs, and swear by them. I just like to keep my sled hand perpendicular to the lens plane at all times to develop the proper feel. Ive never wished i had one.

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

tilt stages ate only used for high shots, having a 3 stage telescopic post that can make a very long sled , post, and its easier to tilt (motorized) the camera to get a birds view of your subject, since its very difficult to control well a very long post, as its expanding very low as well.
thats the only reason and case that a tilt case would be usefull but if its not motorized then its useless.
over all from 100% of shots I have only required 1 or 2 times to have it when I had some shots with a custom long post to do a specific high angle shot.'Other than this its not needed, it adds weight height and trouble on a normal sled

 

[Quentin Devillers]

Thanks for that post, Chris, and thanks to Alex for his thorough treatment of the issue. Sorry I missed his comments elsewhere.

I agree with you, Chris. If it's possible to get two heads, one fixed that keeps the camera as close to the gimbal as possible, and a tiltable one as shown on the CAME website, that would be the best of both worlds. Perhaps the best way to implement this is to make the basic group buy product a fixed head with an add on option for the tilt head. The tilt head appears to be the one on the existing product, so it would probably require very little redesign to offer as an option.

I noticed few posts before that the actual design is already modular (you can have or remove the tilt head !), look at the right of the picture on the product page :

So we don't need to discuss about tilt head or not.
The tilt head is already in the package, those who want the tilt head would be happy, those who doesn't need it can remove it !

cheers