Green Directors - Pages per day - Script Breakdowns

[Elias Tejeda]

How many pages do you feel you're able to shoot (on average) per day on smaller indie shows/films ?

This is meant for those of you doing non-commercial scripted content

I ask because I'm going to be helping out a director friend (who is really green) on a small Halloween thriller short (one of 2 i'll be shooting in the next few weeks). When originally I signed on it was going to be a multiple location (3 , i believe) and was going to be shot over the course of 2 or 3 days

No budget.

Limited (green) crew. (AD,AC,Gaffer, maybe a single grip and script supervisor)

Cast of 5.

I managed to get them to shorten the script down to about 13 pages. YAY! But, ... something happened with the other two locations so we're stuck with a single home interior in multiple rooms

In. a. single. day.

Keep in mind that the main reason I'm going this is to warm up the old DP muscles and network a bit with other locals in order to have people on hand for my own tests and smaller passion projects

But , after each meeting you can imagine how frustrating it can be when trying to communicate what it would take to get something looking good.

They still think it's "going to be ok"

At this point I'm aiming just to get at least one scene looking decent enough to be reel-worthy and let the other chips lay where they may.

Getting them to give me any notion of what they actually picture it looking like has also been a challenge.

Breaking down the scipt? yea.. right

How you you guys handle green directors?

What kind of references do you like to get from them ?

If it weren't a project that i was using for testing, i probably wouldve turned it down. But, even as it stands, it serves as an exercise. Even if the lesson is just to remind me not take professional shoots for granted lol

Sidenote: how are you guys handling the actual scripts .

Do you prefer to sit down with the director to break down a rough shooting script?

Do you like to break it down yourself and see what they like or don't ?

 

[Ryan Williams]

Elias,

Sounds like you got your hands full, mate! That first question about how many pages is tough, because with out knowing what all is in the script and the intended look, it is hard for me to even make a guess. Depending on the complexity of the lighting and the usefulness of the crew, I think you might be able to knock it out in a day (all 13 pages that is), but it is going to be a LONGGGGG day. Especially if the director is as green as you are indicating.

If you are the most experienced and senior person there, you may have to help prop the director up quite a bit. What I mean by that is you will probably need to do some of his job for him and push it to him so that it can come from him, to the rest of crew. I'd highly recommend doing as much preparation during pre-production as you can. I think it will pay dividends for when you get to your shoot day and the Director and crew are all on the same page, and ready to work.

You've got the right ideas already in regards to doing a sit down with the director. If he doesn't have a vision or doesn't care what it looks like as long as its "good", then I'd pitch my own ideas/storyboards/mood boards/inspirational material and go with that. It just depends on how much time you have left. Getting that shooting script sorted is priority after you figure out what the Director wants vision wise (IMO). If you can do any mock setups or tests with the Director and the crew that would help as well (though I don't know if that is feasible in your situation).

Hope that helps!

 

[Marc Wielage]

TV is typically a 50-page script for a drama (depending on how much dialogue), and it's about 6 or 7 pages a day, spread across 6 or 7 shooting days. There are big exceptions like sprawling epic series including Westworld or Game of Thrones, and shows with big casts like Walking Dead often will shoot with two simultaneous units.

13 pages in a day is tough depending on the number of locations and the amount of action. 5 people in a room, not that hard. 5 people in three different places... that could be hard. Using two cameras will help get enough coverage.

Script supervisors and ADs are generally in charge of breaking down the pages, but I would think pre-production meetings could generate storyboards and strategies. If the actors are really well-rehearsed, this will help out a lot.

 

[Hugh Scully]

For a one camera shoot, I think 6 pages is a good target. It depends on how you want to cover. If the director insists on "finding it" on set, and not shot listing, then your schedule is flexible by design so it is hard to judge. I remember an old ASC podcast where the DP, discussing a low budget shoot, said that "the one thing we did have was time." The more you can plan, the better chance you have of making your pages - but you already know that.

I did a short with a first time director, where I warned about too high a page count. The AD was more of a stage manager (see theater people). We were behind all day. At one point, I strongly suggested a reverse. Panicked by the ticking clock, he insisted we didn't need it. During the edit we got to that moment and the director learned a painful lesson. We needed that reverse to cover an exit.

"But Alexander Payne didn't shot list Nebraska!" Exactly... Alexander Payne.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

If you try to do this as presented, there is a very substantial likelihood that you will end up with a very bad movie. The world doesn't need another very bad movie. And, I assume, you and your friends don't want or need to waste their time and money making one.

Spend more time in pre-production and figure out how do do it right.

OTOH, if this is just a hobby endeavor for the experience and to have a good time. Go for it. (But don't compromise your safety by going too long or doing anything stupid.)

If a friend called you up and asked you to run a marathon with him tomorrow - and, no he hasn't trained anymore than you have - and wants to do it in 4-5 hours, would you say yes?

 

[Elias Tejeda]

TV is typically a 50-page script for a drama

I'd love to get my hands on some of those scripts and do a breakdown of my own. Then go back and watch the shows to see how it compares.

Using two cameras will help get enough coverage.

2 Cams might be tough due to lighting but I am planning on it. They have a 2.5k BMCC that should be at least good enough to match on some of the dialogue stuff.

If the actors are really well-rehearsed, this will help out a lot.

Yea, thankfully there will be some rehearsal time with the actors a few days before . Brief but it's there.

That first question about how many pages is tough

Yea, It's not a good question to ask , but i've asked it every time i've had this conversation just out of curiosity for what people's averages lean on.

you may have to help prop the director up quite a bit.

This is probably the biggest lesson learned out of all of this.

Normally I shoot and direct most of my own content so it's a nice(?) change of pace. Not having the final say in how things go down is kind of new to me in these kinds of scenarios so it's good to have a sparring partner,

You've got the right ideas already in regards to doing a sit down with the director. If he doesn't have a vision or doesn't care what it looks like as long as its "good", then I'd pitch my own ideas/storyboards/mood boards/inspirational material and go with that. It just depends on how much time you have left. Getting that shooting script sorted is priority after you figure out what the Director wants vision wise (IMO). If you can do any mock setups or tests with the Director and the crew that would help as well (though I don't know if that is feasible in your situation).

Hope that helps!

I've been doing this a bit on and off over the past couple weeks, whenever we both have time. It just didn't seem to be moving at a pace i'd like , but, it was making some progress.

I had refrained from giving too many of my own ideas/inspiration so as not to contaminate what they might've had in mind. But I did sit down and go over some references with them that got us closer to being on the same page.

I also managed to do a couple rough tests with them at their home.

Even though it was VERY rough, mostly just getting a rough idea of where things will take place, i feel it did help bring us closer to being on task and at least thinking of blocking. It just wasn't anything concrete enough to base the actual shoot day on. Which is where some of my previous frustrations came from.

And YES! That absolutely did help. Thank you

For a one camera shoot, I think 6 pages is a good target. It depends on how you want to cover.

It seems like this seems to be the standard number for everyone.

I can't remember where i read something like 1-hour of shooting per page in the script. Which rounds out to about 12 hours if you include setup times, i guess. Not sure how accurate that info is.

If the director insists on "finding it" on set, and not shot listing, then your schedule is flexible by design so it is hard to judge.

I feel like this is the general direction they were headed. I think it wouldve worked great to find it on set if we had more reasonable time to play with things. But, with the way things have changed , I have steered them more into prepro and having a solid plan in place. It's in getting that plan together that this post came to be.

I remember an old ASC podcast where the DP, discussing a low budget shoot, said that "the one thing we did have was time." The more you can plan, the better chance you have of making your pages - but you already know that.

I love that ! If you happen to remember which podcast that was from, I'd love to hear it.

I did a short with a first time director, where I warned about too high a page count.

"But Alexander Payne didn't shot list Nebraska!" Exactly... Alexander Payne.

Curious to know how you felt about the look you were able to achieve on that hectic day

If you try to do this as presented, there is a very substantial likelihood that you will end up with a very bad movie. The world doesn't need another very bad movie. And, I assume, you and your friends don't want or need to waste their time and money making one.

I really feel like i need this printed on a t-shirt. So great !

Spend more time in pre-production and figure out how do do it right.

OTOH, if this is just a hobby endeavor for the experience and to have a good time. Go for it. (But don't compromise your safety by going too long or doing anything stupid.)

It is not a paid gig, which is what kind of made it worse.

The whole reason I agreed to do it was so that i'd be able to have fun on set trying new things in an environment where fucking up something wasn't the end of the world and where I'd be able to get some new content for my reel.

Not for exposure. Not for money. Not for crafty(lol).

So, naturally, when I see that i'm not getting the things I want/need to get the job done for my (our) benefit it can get frustrating.


I have spoken to the director and actually even shared some of these posts with them (names not included, of course) and it seems like they understood.

While the actual shoot day is still going to be tight (Actor availability) at least it looks like we'll have some proper time to plan things out accordingly. Which is all i was asking for in the first place.

I do thank all of you guys for the kind and helpful words.

 

[Med D]

I'd love to get my hands on some of those (TV) scripts and do a breakdown of my own. Then go back and watch the shows to see how it compares.

http://www.simplyscripts.com/tv.html

 

[Ryan Williams]

Spend more time in pre-production and figure out how do do it right.

100% agree with this. Pre-production will set you up for success or be the downfall of the shoot (IMO).

Yea, It's not a good question to ask , but i've asked it every time i've had this conversation just out of curiosity for what people's averages lean on.

I think you've got a good idea based on what people have replied with. Again, it is tough without actually seeing what is there and you do have that rule of thumb/guideline but just remember that you have to factor in other things like difficulty of the shot/setup, experience level of crew, etc. A page an hour doesn't mean anything w/o context to base it on. So be careful when using these types of guidelines. I tend to schedule longer because it is always easier to tell a Director/Crew that we are done with a shot and can move on earlier (saving time) then it is to carve out more time for an already spoken for schedule. Just my .02 there.

I've been doing this a bit on and off over the past couple weeks, whenever we both have time. It just didn't seem to be moving at a pace i'd like , but, it was making some progress.

It never seem to go at the pace you'd like but trust me every moment saved in pre-production is worth 5x its value when it comes time to shoot.

I had refrained from giving too many of my own ideas/inspiration so as not to contaminate what they might've had in mind. But I did sit down and go over some references with them that got us closer to being on the same page.

I should elaborate a bit more on my previous comments. I wasn't implying or advising you to takeover or contaminate the "vision pool" with your own stuff without letting the Director know. I make it clear that if he/she doesn't have a vision/doesn't care to elaborate or help clarify that vision then I will be using my ideas and vision. The Director needs to have buy in regardless of what option he/she goes with.

Even though it was VERY rough, mostly just getting a rough idea of where things will take place, i feel it did help bring us closer to being on task and at least thinking of blocking. It just wasn't anything concrete enough to base the actual shoot day on. Which is where some of my previous frustrations came from.

Such is the price of working with inexperienced crew! Keep calm, remain flexible, and you'll be fine.

 

[Nick Gardner]

It's really more about how many set ups you have and how much coverage you shoot than how many pages.

I had a director come to me and say he wanted to shoot a 90 min feature in 6 days. He said, "Wait, before your head explodes, i wrote it to be shot in 6 days, and it's 2 locations." I said that if we only shot what we needed, then it was doable. We did a lot of 3 and 4 page oners. Deciding what coverage you need, and blocking so you don't need coverage can save you a ton of time. If the scene plays in a 50/50 two shot with a slow push in over 2 minutes, and you are bold enough to go for it, and the actors can nail it, then that's great. On the other hand, if the director or the DP are not used to complicated blocking, then it can be a total clusterfuck.

Making bold decisions like having actors stacked so you are on the foreground actor, maybe two other people in the BG, then FG guy turns, walks up to one of the BG people, you follow end up in a single on the third person, that kind of thing. Children of Men is an excellent example of how to do this. Raiders of the lost ark also has some excellent blocking that minimizes coverage.

Have fun,

Nick

 

[M Most]

TV is typically a 50-page script for a drama (depending on how much dialogue), and it's about 6 or 7 pages a day, spread across 6 or 7 shooting days. There are big exceptions like sprawling epic series including Westworld or Game of Thrones, and shows with big casts like Walking Dead often will shoot with two simultaneous units.
.

7 days was the norm in the 80s and 90s. It was never 6 days in recent history except for a few early cable dramas, and some studios like Lorimar which went to 6 1/2 days at one point. Today, the normal schedule for a network level drama is 8 days. For a single camera comedy it's usually 5 days. The shows you mentioned, along with some Netflix series (Stranger Things comes to mind) sometimes get a lot more than that, often 12-15 days. For those shows, it can change per episode.

 

[Marc Wielage]

7 days was the norm in the 80s and 90s. It was never 6 days in recent history except for a few early cable dramas, and some studios like Lorimar which went to 6 1/2 days at one point. Today, the normal schedule for a network level drama is 8 days. For a single camera comedy it's usually 5 days. The shows you mentioned, along with some Netflix series (Stranger Things comes to mind) sometimes get a lot more than that, often 12-15 days. For those shows, it can change per episode.

Yeah, the three shows I had in mind were Lost, Boston Legal, and CSI Miami, all of which were 8 days throughout the last 10 years. You can always find exceptions: I think Westworld set a record for 3 weeks for several episodes. Game of Thrones has gone 2 weeks for sure, plus pickups. I think the CW shows shooting in Vancouver are all at 6 days. True Blood was I think even longer, 8 or 9 days, but again they had multiple episodes going. The two single-camera comedies I worked on did 4 days, but sometimes held a 5th day for reshoots and pickups.

I wasn't aware that Stranger Things went 12 days, but I would bet that's because they're not doing 1st & 2nd units. If they have that much money to spread around, more power to them. I think it's more efficient to shoot with more crews and not tie up the actors as long, but you can make arguments either way. (I've heard the per-episode budget on this show has crept close to $5 million, which is a lotta dough.)

What gets really complicated on these "long arc" shows is when they start shooting multiple episodes at one time. I can recall situations where one camera roll literally had pieces of three different episodes, and it was a nightmare to sort out in post. It's for reasons like this that I often tell the AC, "slates are important." Even more so when they aren't always shooting the same episode in a single production day. I also tell them, "slates are just for the editor, the assistant editor, and the studio production chief who notices how many takes the director needs to get the scene done." But they're very necessary, even with digital.

For the o.p., I think we can all agree that 13 pages is very tough, and the problem with trying to do half or some of these pages as a "oner" is this will greatly limit your options in editing. To me, shooting it conventionally and just having actors that are extremely well-rehearsed, and making sure everything is blocked and ready... that will help reduce the number of takes you need to do for each scene. A&B camera will help as well.

 

[Ryan Williams]

For the o.p., I think we can all agree that 13 pages is very tough, and the problem with trying to do half or some of these pages as a "oner" is this will greatly limit your options in editing. To me, shooting it conventionally and just having actors that are extremely well-rehearsed, and making sure everything is blocked and ready... that will help reduce the number of takes you need to do for each scene. A&B camera will help as well.

Agreed, in all respects. Though with a smaller crew I'm not sure he'd want to juggle two cameras and be prop'ing the Director up. Just something to think about.

 

[David Peterson]

How many pages do you feel you're able to shoot (on average) per day on smaller indie shows/films ?

This is meant for those of you doing non-commercial scripted content

I ask because I'm going to be helping out a director friend (who is really green) on a small Halloween thriller short (one of 2 i'll be shooting in the next few weeks). When originally I signed on it was going to be a multiple location (3 , i believe) and was going to be shot over the course of 2 or 3 days

No budget.

Limited (green) crew. (AD,AC,Gaffer, maybe a single grip and script supervisor)

Cast of 5.

No one for sound?!?!

 

[David Peterson]

If a friend called you up and asked you to run a marathon with him tomorrow - and, no he hasn't trained anymore than you have - and wants to do it in 4-5 hours, would you say yes?

I would!

 

[Daniel Stilling]

Getting a little off-topic here, it might be interesting to point out the way they do it in Europe: Blocks. They put 2 or 3 episodes together, and make it sorta like a feature film schedule. It gives you a bit more time, and also, each block gets its own DP , Director, AD's and a few more key personal. It varies a little from show to show. Each block also gets its own prep time, so it really is kind off like shooting a feature.
Now, back to your issue, it depends on so much! I have done 1/8 of a page spread over 3 days, and i have done 16 pages + in one day. I worked on "Criminal Minds" and that was a 7 day/episode show, but with a big issue: Large ensemble cast most of the time. So there was no time to run each scene, the whole dialog through the 5-6 main characters. so, the blocking was extremely important, to enable the camera ops to fish for all the lines (or at least most of them) in each take.
I also recently shot a whole feature in 10 days. But it was extremely cleverly written, with about 10 scenes (one per shooting day) that get cut up through the movie. We never had a day longer than 12 hours, and we made our day everyday. And because I had other commitments just before, the prep was really looking at pictures and making a few Skype calls before the shooting started. It comes out next year. Here are a few screen grabs: https://www.danieldp.com/gt390
Even with the very short schedule I was able to get very creative with most of it. BTW, none of it was storyboarded. We found the shots on the day.
So, the important part is you to know what you are doing and for the Director to trust you.

Good luck!

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Maybe send them to education on the craft of directing? Script breakdowns are as part of the directing job as knowing how to light is for a cinematographer. If they don't do it, they need to learn it first. I wouldn't call that being green, I'd call it not being a director at all. The first I would do to start the director up is to buy a book about directing films and give him.

Directing films is an artform, but it's just as much a craft that needs the director to do some essential things before a shoot. Otherwise you could just grab someone off the street to direct.