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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Good enough...

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David Mullen ASC said:
Their camera is 3.5K RAW -- you're telling me that they can make a 3.5K RAW camera but don't know how to make a 4K RAW camera???

They made a CHOICE based on a wide array of engineering and manufacturing factors, but don't suggest that a lack of skill or knowledge was the basic problem.
Click to expand...

Thanks for mentioning this David.
ARRI made a CHOICE with ALEXA to produce a camera that captures uncompressed RAW data from the sensor and fits simply and easily into the existing 2K DI and 1920x1080P workflows that account for most of the work people will use this camera for. We also chose an array of post workflows that fit the majority of workflows used today with a couple of surprises. ARRI has a long history of building tools for artists and craftsmen/women to use for their job. Let's not forget that that's what motion picture cameras are.

Jim and his crew at RED made some different CHOICES to service some of the same artists and craftsmen/women

We think our approach will provide the best image quality and ease of use, I'm sure the RED folks think the same thing. The amazing thing about all of this is that these are only some of the choices available today.

Why must this become a right/wrong game? Especially without so much as most of the people commenting, seeing either tool, let alone both together.
 
They don't start with 3.5k to make 1080p though - that is derived from 2880 x 1620 according to their specs.

Graeme
 
Jannard said:
If 1080P is really "good enough"... then there is no reason for RED.

We started this business because we believed that 1080P was NOT good enough a film alternative/replacement.

Film has much more resolution than 1080P (almost 4 times).

If the industry really believes that 1080P (or 2K) is good enough... please let us know so we can shut down and go on a forever vacation...

Jim
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Jim,

I respectfully disagree that there would be no reason for Red. Some years ago I decided after testing it with a number of people, that I had some material worth publishing on DVD and whatever might come next. So I bought a native widescreen camera and related equipment to support it. (About $100,000.) The pictures looked pretty decent on the SDI monitor, but once encoded for DVD using Sonic's encoder and Scenarist for authoring, I considered the results unsuitable for a commercial product. So, I stopped the project, and went and got a job, while I waited for someone like Red to come along. Which is why I bought in early.
The problems are several:
1. When compressing video, if the source is noisy, much useful bandwidth is used up processing noise instead of changes in the actual picture.
2. As Graeme pointed out earlier, there are losses in editing.
But, if you start with a much higher resolution than you will eventually use, you can do a great deal of noise canceling.
If you start with greater color depth, the result after editing and other post processes is greatly improved too.
The bottom line is that even if the Red output was only going to DVD, the Red would be well worth it for the improvement in quality, which can be seen.
Add to that the fact that BluRay came along in the meantime. Now the Red has the same advantage over starting with merely 1080P.
And in the future, hopefully, since what I am doing is fairly timeless, I will be ready for the next thing to come along too. I also know that the things that I don't like about what I get on BD and DVD today with my Reds will virtually disappear with the new sensor in the Epic. (Or an upgraded R1).
I made a very expensive mistake a few years ago, and learned a lesson. What you are doing is more valuable and important than you think.
(Even though I never intended to, I have wound up involved in a few feature films along the way too.)

Dave
 
Graeme Nattress said:
They don't start with 3.5k to make 1080p though - that is derived from 2880 x 1620 according to their specs.

Graeme
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But if we use the 4K equals 3.2 measured proportion that I think I remember seeing here (and did we update that later that better processing squeezed out a little more?) that still gives 2304 x 1296 so a solid 1920x1080 or 2048x1024 even with a 20% crop, no?

I think for the vast majority of REDUSER readers $5K to $30K price point vs. 60K+ means they aren't even in that market so no difficult decision. But there are productions/businesses for whom that difference is trivial or that rent and won't see the dramatically different rental rates from a full service house - and for them the decision will be more difficult.

It is analogous to my situation with buying a new car - I'm in the range of $25K to 35K, and wouldn't even consider a $65K car even though I could fairly easily swing the payments. For whatever reason, I'm just not interested in investing that much in a car. For the same reasons, in 2006 I wasn't comfortable spending 40K+ on a Varicam (even though in 1991 I spent $35K -$53K in 2006 dollars on a Betacam) yet $17500 on a 4K RED1 was a no brainer because affordable high res was more important to my current business model than a more popular HD camera.
 
Originally on RED One we measured about 3.2k on a 4k record. We can see about 3.5k now on M-X (on 4k record), so that ratio is dependent upon many things and may or may not translate over to Alexa. It should be somewhere approximately around there, but we won't know until we get one pointed at a good chart.

Graeme
 
Lee Saxon said:
Even though I've been shooting RAW on DSLRs for about 8 years, I can still remember what shooting JPEG was like.

In other words, good luck to all you Alexa fans.
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So you can't be a Red and Alexa fan at the same time? Lee, why do you care? Do you think this is a war? Both cameras can exist in harmony.

I'm curious if we take a talented ASC member and give them an Alexa and give an average fanboy an Epic and then see who can produce a better image what the results would be....then Switch and see what the results would be.

Dear Red (Jim and Company), I really like what you are doing. I've followed Jim as a business man since he started Oakley. Considering that it's in my backyard and a good friend of mine was an accountant at Oakley (Do you remember Stephanie?) I really want to get behind this. However, it's impossible to have any constructive criticism here or meaningful discussions without post after post of pure fanboy replies that denigrate those of us who try to be somewhat realistic and neutral about things. I wish we could get a little more moderation in that direction. It will only help to make Red better. I mean is "good luck to all you Alexa fans." really helpful?

Anyway, sorry about my rant...It just gets exhausting.
 
Tim H. said:
So you can't be a Red and Alexa fan at the same time? Lee, why do you care? Do you think this is a war? Both cameras can exist in harmony.

I'm curious if we take a talented ASC member and give them an Alexa and give an average fanboy an Epic and then see who can produce a better image what the results would be....then Switch and see what the results would be.

Dear Red (Jim and Company), I really like what you are doing. I've followed Jim as a business man since he started Oakley. Considering that it's in my backyard and a good friend of mine was an accountant at Oakley (Do you remember Stephanie?) I really want to get behind this. However, it's impossible to have any constructive criticism here or meaningful discussions without post after post of pure fanboy replies that denigrate those of us who try to be somewhat realistic and neutral about things. I wish we could get a little more moderation in that direction. It will only help to make Red better. I mean is "good luck to all you Alexa fans." really helpful?

Anyway, sorry about my rant...It just gets exhausting.
Click to expand...

Tim... reasonable post.

Jim
 
I'm tired about this discussion...

Change the title from "Good enough" to "Best possible", that's all.

Antoine
 
Tim H. said:
So you can't be a Red and Alexa fan at the same time? Lee, why do you care? Do you think this is a war? Both cameras can exist in harmony.

Dear Red (Jim and Company), I really like what you are doing. I've followed Jim as a business man since he started Oakley. Considering that it's in my backyard and a good friend of mine was an accountant at Oakley (Do you remember Stephanie?) I really want to get behind this. However, it's impossible to have any constructive criticism here or meaningful discussions without post after post of pure fanboy replies that denigrate those of us who try to be somewhat realistic and neutral about things. I wish we could get a little more moderation in that direction. It will only help to make Red better. I mean is "good luck to all you Alexa fans." really helpful?

Anyway, sorry about my rant...It just gets exhausting.
Click to expand...

Wow, man, calm down. All I was saying was high compression codecs suck. I can't believe anyone here disagrees.

But since you and Jim both think I'm a stupid fanboy, I'm gonna defend myself.

DSMC shoots RAW. Alexa shoots whatever everything-baked-in codec it shoots in (don't care if it's 300 MB/s 4:4:4 or something in the AVCHD quality range).

Based on that alone DSMC is better. Even if Alexa's specs were increased to otherwise match DSMC. Even if Alexa's price was dropped to 1/2 of DSMC(at ~1/3 I might consider it, though)

But if you've got a situation in which Alexa is a better choice than an Epic or even a Scarlet, feel free to tell me why I'm wrong. I just don't see it (still not sure why you took that so personally, though).
 
Jannard said:
If 1080P is really "good enough"... then there is no reason for RED.

We started this business because we believed that 1080P was NOT good enough a film alternative/replacement.

Film has much more resolution than 1080P (almost 4 times).

If the industry really believes that 1080P (or 2K) is good enough... please let us know so we can shut down and go on a forever vacation...

Jim
Click to expand...

I never got the "good enough" term. Good enough for who? If there is something better than what I have, then I want it. That goes with anything. Why settle for a 1080p camera when we can have 5k? So many more options in the end. I want all those options! Keep it up Red team!
 
Lee Saxon said:
DSMC shoots RAW. Alexa shoots whatever everything-baked-in codec it shoots in (don't care if it's 300 MB/s 4:4:4 or something in the AVCHD quality range).

Based on that alone DSMC is better. Even if Alexa's specs were increased to otherwise match DSMC. Even if Alexa's price was dropped to 1/2 of DSMC(at ~1/3 I might consider it, though)
Click to expand...

That, plus "given that, I don't understand why someone would chose Alexa over Epic or even Scarlet" is what I should have posted instead of the snarky version I posted.

Fair enough, I admit that. Apologies.
 
Lee Saxon said:
But since you and Jim both think I'm a stupid fanboy, I'm gonna defend myself.
Click to expand...

Lee... I don't think you are stupid. I think you are 100% correct. But there needs to be room here for alternate viewpoints.

Arri has chosen one path, we have chosen another. That is not new to this industry. I'm certainly biased which road is better but acknowledge that there is more than one option out there.

I strongly believe in the highest resolution possible with the highest DR and frame rates in the smallest and lightest package with the most options for the customer at the cheapest price possible and the least chance of one's purchase going obsolete in a few months. So sue me... :-)

Jim
 
Lee Saxon said:
Wow, man, calm down. All I was saying was high compression codecs suck. I can't believe anyone here disagrees.

But since you and Jim both think I'm a stupid fanboy, I'm gonna defend myself.

DSMC shoots RAW. Alexa shoots whatever everything-baked-in codec it shoots in (don't care if it's 300 MB/s 4:4:4 or something in the AVCHD quality range).

Based on that alone DSMC is better. Even if Alexa's specs were increased to otherwise match DSMC. Even if Alexa's price was dropped to 1/2 of DSMC(at ~1/3 I might consider it, though)

But if you've got a situation in which Alexa is a better choice than an Epic or even a Scarlet, feel free to tell me why I'm wrong. I just don't see it (still not sure why you took that so personally, though).
Click to expand...

I am calm Lee, no worries there. The fact that you can't understand where Alexa might be a better choice is not my problem or my place to "prove" to you where either but I'd never make statement like "good luck" to all you Epic users or Sony users or whatever users.

It's going to be sometime before you ever get buy an Epic or even rent an Epic so maybe I should say "good luck" to you but that doesn't serve any purpose but to further waste a few inches of forum space. That is why I got on you about your post. It serves no purpose but to bash another product.

It doesn't matter what the price of the Alexa or Red is because for most professionals who shoot in the TV or Film Industry they will work with these tools when they are rented by the production company. If there are production companies or owner/operators who see it a smart business model to actually purchase one of these camera then they will buy what makes most sense for the jobs they produce.

Lee, what will you be doing with your Epic?
 
Tim H. said:
I am calm Lee, no worries there. The fact that you can't understand where Alexa might be a better choice is not my problem or my place to "prove" to you where either but I'd never make statement like "good luck" to all you Epic users or Sony users or whatever users.

It's going to be sometime before you ever get buy an Epic or even rent an Epic so maybe I should say "good luck" to you but that doesn't serve any purpose but to further waste a few inches of forum space. That is why I got on you about your post. It serves no purpose but to bash another product.

It doesn't matter what the price of the Alexa or Red is because for most professionals who shoot in the TV or Film Industry they will work with these tools when they are rented by the production company. If there are production companies or owner/operators who see it a smart business model to actually purchase one of these camera then they will buy what makes most sense for the jobs they produce.

Lee, what will you be doing with your Epic?
Click to expand...

This rental question has come up a few times... with inaccurate expectations. Keslow has indicated their desire to buy 50 EPICs. Otto Nemenz has indicated their desire to purchase significantly more EPICs than Alexas. Sim Video has indicated their interest to purchase in excess of 30 EPICs. I think the "rental" discussion might want to take a different turn.

Jim
 
Jannard said:
Lee... I don't think you are stupid. I think you are 100% correct. But there needs to be room here for alternate viewpoints.

Arri has chosen one path, we have chosen another. That is not new to this industry. I'm certainly biased which road is better but acknowledge that there is more than one option out there.

I strongly believe in the highest resolution possible with the highest DR and frame rates in the smallest and lightest package with the most options for the customer at the cheapest price possible and the least chance of one's purchase going obsolete in a few months. So sue me... :-)

Jim
Click to expand...

Lee, I too do not think you are stupid and never mentioned anything like that, nor did Jim. Jim to his credit simply acknowledged my point of view. We need more of that here. Remember, Jim loves film and this is not only a business but a passion of his but at some point it will become a very expensive and unsustainable passion/hobby if the business doesn't succeed.

I think Jim would agree that he needs people to tear his products apart and keep him pushing otherwise the products won't be as good as they could be. We don't do any of us any good by simply agreeing and brown nosing every single thing that happens here. It's those real world experience, in the battlefield feedback and opinion that helps to make the products better for all of us. Can you imagine how many more of the products we use every day would be better if more companies listened like Red? But if all the good improvements are drowned out by constant praise even when there is a problem then what good does that do?

Peace.
 
Jannard said:
This rental question has come up a few times... with inaccurate expectations. Keslow has indicated their desire to buy 50 EPICs. Otto Nemenz has indicated their desire to purchase significantly more EPICs than Alexas. Sim Video has indicated their interest to purchase in excess of 30 EPICs. I think the "rental" discussion might want to take a different turn.

Jim
Click to expand...

You better get the Epic Elves on overtime then, looks like the demand will keep you busy. :)

If Epic shapes up to be what we have seen so far I have no doubt it will saturate the market. No rental doubting here. I'm glad to see there will be some serious support behind it.
 
I think there is going to be a lot of subjective bias until these things get into peoples hands and people really see what it is these things can do, and what they can do for them.

I think then, the products and their output are totally going to speak for themselves one way or another. At the end of the day, until I've got that Scarlet in my hand am *I* am shooting it, no amount of test footage or screenshots will ever tell me the story I want to know. This is why I understand when Jim says something along the lines "I wish you could see this thing in action" or such because the real power shines when you start pushing any technology or pointing at stuff that you KNOW that YOU shoot on a regular basis.

That's when the gloves come off and the real punches fly! :)
 
Jim,

(since it seems like you're spending some time on here right now)

Can you explain your view of where the 2/3rds Scarlets fit into your "1080p isn't enough". I haven't seen you qualify that statement in a way that suggests you think there is room for any sub-4K acquisition and finish.

Are you saying that somebody shooting work on the 2/3rds chips are pulling a "Welcome back, Kotter"?

I guess I am just still confused by the 4K push from Red...and the creation of a camera that will basically be designed for 2K finish. I completely agree that 4K is the way, which is why the S35 scarlet has always been the lowest option I would be willing to consider.

Thanks in advance!
 
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