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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Good enough...

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1080p isn't enough for acquisition, not today, not tomorrow. Furthermore, what is really important to me is exposure latitude.

Give me a FF or S35 sensor, in a metal housing that shoots 12+ stops without aliasing and I'm happier than a Irishman on half price Guinness day:).
 
Jannard said:
If 1080P is really "good enough"... then there is no reason for RED. Jim
Click to expand...

1. All 1080P is not created equal. RED footage scaled down to 1080P makes all other 1080p (besides 35mm film transfer) look like the video from my iPhone. Look at my profile picture to the left. That's a frame of 4K scaled down to a postage stamp but there's just something about the clarity and pixel stability in that image that tells you it's not a frame-grab from a 1080P video camera.

2. Even if I only had to deliver SD Broadcast or 720P for YouTube, I would still acquire with the RED ONE at 4K. The difference, even at that size, is significant. I've seen big brands demand medium format film for a quarter-page magazine ad and you really can tell the difference.

3. It may take some time before 1080P is relegated to VHS status (I predict 10 years) but I believe it will only be 3 years before the average consumer will readily notice and greatly appreciate the difference between material acquired at 1080P and material acquired at 4K and downscaled to 1080P. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if content publishers start demanding 4K original source material.

4. For theatrical release or anything that will be watched 5 years from now, 4K acquisition is an absolute necessity.

I just don't think RED lives and dies on 4K consumer distribution. I think there's a lot more to it than that and RED has raised the bar continually in every one of those "other" areas that matter. I still don't think we've seen the best 1080P possible. We may need to acquire at 8K and develop better algorithms before we master 1080P. Who knows what it will take to truly master the art of pure 1:1 4K delivery. Maybe a new kind of sensor technology, lighting or lens technology? Maybe 16K acquisition scaled down to 4K?

-michael zaletel
 
Robert Frank said:
That's the point. There are some companies pushing 1080p as good enough for both acquisition and delivery.
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If they are pushing that as the end point needed they are obvioulsy pushing BS

Even my personal/dream spec to deliver 1080 requires 2.5k aquisition giving a little headroom for reframing, stabilisation software etc

I would just personally love to see a 2.5k/1080 raw solution out there in the marketplace

particularly as an affordable entry point into a modular system

I would take this resolution at a higher frame rate over a higher res with a lower frame rate

I would also dream of having the 5k or 10k version sometime - no question of that

S
 
I‘m sure that people will watch 4K YouTube Videos on Google/Apple TVs before 2015.

Sony and Panasonic are the Nokias of tomorrow. Google and Apple TVs will change the game in less than 36 months with Oled displays, 4G (LTE) onboard, brilliant colors, high DR and an easy to use experience.
 
Who is saying 1080p is good enough anyway??? Even newbie videograhers want to own a Scarlet.

You'd have to be a complete twatt not to realize where things are headed.

My advice to the naysayers; enjoy your retirement!!
 
1080p is the VHS of the future....

Taking Moore's Law into consideration, how long before 4k becomes the 1080p of the future?

Any takers?
 
You had vhs originated material, and 35mm material transfered to vhs. Of course, 35mm originated material transfered to vhs looked way better.

So if you use 1080p as a distribution format, 5k material will still look better.

In resolution and DR, more is better. Period.

I heard somewhere that human vision would be around 127mp. We'll be there eventually, then everything else will be vhs,
 
1080p is NOW the finishing format and frame size of choice for TV. It will be for the next 10 years. ProRes is the editing format of choice for a massive percentage of editors, posthouses etc.

By all means, have your camera
utilise the highest possible capture resolutions, sensor sizes and lens technology. But don't then ignore the huge market who want the footage in 1080p by declaring it's dead. Everything is obsolete eventually, that's a given. But by the time 1080p is, cameras a lot cheaper and more advanced than Epic will exist - fact.

Whether you like it or not, if you do not offer the vastly simplified 1080p workflow of your competitors (which I hope you will based on the epic specs and talk of 1080 FF) you will lose business. Please - offer a ProRes module in the vein of the H264 proxy module already announced. You can still have 4k capture for archive - but some of us live and work in the present, and remarks like this (whether intended or not) smack of arrogance.

I know I'm going to attract criticism for this, not least from the RED centric post world, but please spare me the RED post is easy comments. I know RED post - all the tricks. I just don't want work-around workflows forever, or realtime cludges. I want 1080p.
 
As mentioned above...

Until a motionless still taken from 4K 24P and scaled down to 1920 pixels wide looks indistinguishably as good as a RAW STILL image from today's best PRO DSLR's scaled down to 1920 pixels wide, there's work to be done beyond increasing the pixel count.

-michael zaletel
 
Isn't 4k Also the VHS of the future? Given enough time every format up to the eye's limit is obsolete. Even then we'll just make eyes obsolete and offer upgrades.

1080p IS good enough for television. Once it goes through compression and transmission it's not even really 1080p anymore.

Then again we render a lot of passes at 4k + super sampling for 1080p. So there is certainly an argument to be made for oversampling to reduce artifacts and improve image quality.

I think selling RED purely on resolution is underselling RED.

I would have picked:

1) Price
2) Dynamic Range
3) Resolution
4) Sensitivity
5) Workflow
and
6) Size

as the largest RED selling points in that order.

If 4k is the only reason to use a RED then why do so many people use RED on projects finished and delivered in 1080p or less? I'm probably going to be working on a 1080p RED project next week where the RED plate is scaled down to less than 480p in the frame.

Even if RED were putting out a 3k camera I would still prefer an Epic or Scarlet to an Alexa. Seems like a waste of effort to sell people on 5k when you already have a convincing case without it.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
If 4k is the only reason to use a RED then why do so many people use RED on projects finished and delivered in 1080p or less? I'm probably going to be working on a 1080p RED project next week where the RED plate is scaled down to less than 480p in the frame.
Click to expand...

Precisely!

-michael zaletel
 
Hi Jim and RED TEAM and to all who own a RED ONE.
GOOD ENOUGH 1080 HA HA HA.

in 1997 I shot a independent wildlife documentary on SD on one of first affordable 3 Chip DV camcorder. The film Jewel of The Mangroves, went on win number awards including one at IWFF (Montana USA). It was produced by me without receiving any funding whatsoever, I would spend my last Dirham buying tapes, petrol and spent days and months filming. I had lost my regular job as producer in company in Dubai just a month back and instead of mourning decided to film. Just a few months back I had taken a personal loan of US10000/- to buy the camera. Six months after losing my job I finished the film and the rest was history. But when I tried selling this film to a major Japanese broadcaster I received the greatest shock of my like, I was categorically told that the film was great but they did not buy anything that was not shot in HD. This was in 2000 for God's sake. I have still kept the correspondence as a reminder of how there has been a sinister policy to always up the ante with technology which an independent cannot afford.

In 2001 I setup VFX and have been in business since then, we have had Six different HD cameras and when one could afford one, long telephoto HD lenses were more expensive than the HD camera itself. In NAB 2007 I had the good fortune of being a quiet observer of RED and at the same show or was later at IBC, Super HD was being shown by you guessed right a major Japanese Manufacturer in collaboration with a Japanese Broadcaster, and this was going to be the future of television, YES 4K. Guys get the drift, because RED has put a spanner in the future plans of a lot of MONEY HUNGRY ??????, and made 4K not just possible but affordable SO TODAY 1080 is NOW GOOD ENOUGH. We have had our RED ONE since August 2008, and have used Nikon Telephoto Lenses to shoot Six Wildlife Docus till date, besides scores of TVC and other commercial work. THANK YOU RED for making our work future proof at least for a few years.
TODAY when I am happy I see RED, SAD-RED, ANGRY-RED, MAKING MONEY-RED, LESS COMMERCIAL WORK- WILD RED. WHAT I am saying is that guys you have fantastic future proof tool use it, and guys who just joined or will join the film-video-televison industry, you have no clue how hard it was in the past to create affordable 2K imagery let alone 4K, so make the most of it.

Yusuf Thakur
VFX, DUBAI
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
Isn't 4k Also the VHS of the future? Given enough time every format up to the eye's limit is obsolete. Even then we'll just make eyes obsolete and offer upgrades.
Click to expand...

4K is the theoretical upper limit of scanning for over 100 years worth of 35mm acquisition for film, TV, etc. Almost every Oscar ever won. 4K will be the new gold standard for a while. To scan beyond it rules out 100 years worth of existing entertainment footage. "In 4K We Trust."
 
When I first saw 1080 on my home TV, I was blown away. I couldn't wait until all the channels I liked were in HD. Now that they are nearly all HD, the novelty has worn off. I expect my TV to give me HD, when it doesn't, I don't watch. I'd watch C-Span in HD over a movie I like in SD.

Very soon, there will be no SD piped into my house-- when the "S" in "SD" vanishes, the "H" in "HD" will disappear too, and TV will go right back to being just plain old TV again. If the people that think 1080 is good enough get their way (Quixote has better odds at nailing those windmills), then there will be fundamentally no difference between what you can get at home versus what you get at the movie theatre. Who will pay a premium for the same level of image quality at the cinema as one can get at home?

I'd go so far as to say that 1080 isn't the future VHS, its the future Betamax. VHS actually won that format war. 1080 is up against 4K. With Moore's Law, the market always favors increased capacity, because that's where the productivity gains are. Only with increased capacity in resolution (both temporal and optical) do you get more efficient compression algorithms, which increases your physical network bandwidth, which drives demand, which justifies increased capital expansion and upgrade of networks into new territories.

Basically take the HD model that supplanted SD, cast HD in the role of SD and 4K in the role of HD and repeat. This new cycle should repeat every 20 years, with orders-of-magnitude advantages for bandwidth and market growth for each turnover. 4K begets 8K begets 20K, etc. over the next 40+ years.

Jim, I know you must feel like you're banging your head against the wall sometimes when folks won't let go of the "good enough" argument, but you're in the best position of anyone in the last twenty years to take advantage of the next turn of the tide. And because of who you are, and how you play this game, you're bringing thousands of us right along with you. The words "Good Enough" died when analog died and they're buried in the same shallow grave.
 
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