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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Going to Be a Bit "Upset" if We Don't Get Dragon Upgrade

Jason Honeycutt

Jason Honeycutt

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Obviously there is conflicting information about whether or not we'll get the Dragon sensor. I'm going to be furious if we don't because why in the world would I have bought this instead of a used R1MX for pennies on the dollar... it's the SAME MX picture, however, in that I get more frame-rates. What sucks for me is that I bought mine used... so will I be SOL as far as a trade-in? I'm already a bit mad at myself at my timing... three weeks after I bought mine, they dropped the price of a new Epic massively.

Has anyone heard any more info about the Dragon for the Scarlet? I bought mine from a company who makes different accessories for Epic and Scarlet and he said that he's pulled both cameras apart and they're IDENTICAL inside. In fact, he swears that the circuit boards and chips are identical, is convinced there is a "governor" that caps what the Scarlet can do, in a rush to get it on the market with the Canon C300. My point is... saying they would have to gut the Scarlet differently than an Epic doesn't hold water for me.

(Ah, remember Ted's video? https://vimeo.com/40468674)
 
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EPIC was released before the Scarlet. So there goes that whole rush to get it on the market with the C300 theory. Scarlet has been on the market over a year and sold thousands of units. If it was identical to an EPIC and just had a "governor" on it someone would have found a way to hack it by now.
 
My understanding is when the ASIC fails the QC test for Epic, it gets checked to make sure it's good enough for a Scarlet and the camera is born.

For this reason they would be identical, with the only difference being it fails to be good enough for Epic specs.

Pretty simple.

My understanding about Dragon is Jim said in his first post that it was not going to be avialble for Scarlet and there would be an upgrade program for anyone wanting to move up to Epic.

Haven't seen any different info since.
 
Calm down calm down.
Dragon is coming.

We have heard info on the Dragon and there have been considerable thoughts on a potential upgrade path from Scarlet into an EPIC which shall allow one to get into the Dragon.
Its been posted on here before and I can assure you as a RED ONE past owner and now a multiple EPIC owner that RED has go way above and beyond any other camera company in the world EVER to give tier customers more than they are use to in upgrades left and right.

As for your company that makes different accessories for EPIC and Scarlet and pulled both apart.
They are just having fun with you and getting a rise out of you as you get "UPSET" on a forum.
Several similarities in both no doubt but there are some differences on the ASICs circuit board.

No time table on the Dragon to come out but having spent the week at RED studios.
Its safe to relax and look forward to the Dragon when it does come out, It will hold plenty of water for you.

And Likely will blow everything by leaps and bounds out of the water.
Its been said that its a Generation skip in sensor technology.
 
It is cool that RED does try to take care of us, I dig that and they really need us to stay loyal with the rise of the Alexa.

To me, though, by now not having a Scarlet Dragon upgrade, it completely makes the Scarlet irrelevant as far as being "future proof", like, one and done. The advantage to buying the Scarlet at the time was that, yeah, you get less frame rates and you don't get the full practical/usable 5K... but they said, like the R1MX, you'd get an upgrade. I don't need an Epic. The ability to upgrade was the ONLY reason I didn't just buy an older R1MX for half the price, that could do more than my Scarlet can do. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but I'm feeling I should have just waited... gotten the Epic had I known that. How didn't RED know this long ago?

The only thing from making the Scarlet's manufacturing a complete mistake is this upgrade path... but, in all fairness to us, it HAS to be around the same $6K range. Maybe $8K? I know, people will say, "But you're getting an EPIC!!" I didn't want/need an Epic and now I'm gonna be forced into buying one. Like I way saying, I'm sorry to whine but as awesome as RED as a company is, you can't sell something saying it will soon be able to have the upgrade for $6K then, "Actually, now that you bought the Scarlet... you're gonna have to send the 'now used' Scarlet back for yet more money you didn't expect to spend, if you want that Dragon processor that we said you would have had." What I mean is that, the "trade in value" has got to be substantial. I don't need an Epic, it'd be nice and all of that, but all I need is my Scarlet. Now I feel like I'm going to be forced into paying way more than I intended when that isn't what I signed up for.

Is there any info on how much more this is going to run us?
 
Mathieu Ghekiere said:
There *will* be an upgrade path for people wanting to go from a Scarlet to an Epic-Dragon. There have been no details about that.
Click to expand...

Let's hope.

They really need to get on that because they can't sell Scarlets with the pretense that you'll get the Dragon sensor for roughly $6K then just change that, making ours completely obsolete, identical to the R1MX's flooding the marketplace. This is a key thing to making the decision to buy and if they can easily just pull the plug on that, they need to have the back-up plan ready to go. None of this secret, vague stuff.

I'm going to NAB this year... can't wait to have a chat with them in person :)
 
BigLu said:
As for your company that makes different accessories for EPIC and Scarlet and pulled both apart.
They are just having fun with you and getting a rise out of you as you get "UPSET" on a forum.
Several similarities in both no doubt but there are some differences on the ASICs circuit board.

No time table on the Dragon to come out but having spent the week at RED studios.
Its safe to relax and look forward to the Dragon when it does come out, It will hold plenty of water for you.

And Likely will blow everything by leaps and bounds out of the water.
Its been said that its a Generation skip in sensor technology.
Click to expand...

I have no doubt that the Dragon is going to be, well, epic :) I'm hoping it puts RED again as the first choice, ahead of Alexa. I use both but I'm getting so sick of hearing about Alexa... people who have no clue what Alexa even does, "I want this to be shot on Alexa... since everything else is." To me, the dynamic range is what keeps Alexa in front right now... but Dragon is going to solve that, but not if you have a Scarlet.

As far as that company... I don't want to say who they are but they're definitely reputable and is probably "the" leading manufacturer of RED accessories, and I'll leave it at that. My point is that I heard on another thread that there just wasn't "room" for the Dragon in the Scarlet... which isn't good enough for me. Scarlet/Epic have the identical shell, same press. The circuits inside apparently are identical or 'almost' identical, but it's not like there's an extra board in the Scarlet taking up room that the Epic doesn't have.

To me, the only thing that would make sense is it being a power supply and cooling problem. But, Ted at NAB last year, was equally confident in both the Epic and Scarlet getting Dragon so I wonder what happened all of a sudden. I know, it's not good to question RED on here but I'm wondering if it's a business thing where it incentivizes the Epic more then the Scarlet, so you make that jump... and they phase out the Scarlets. I'm thinking it's that because they dropped the body of the Epic down by a ton... and just a little for the Scarlet.
 
As far as I'm concerned - any time RED mentioned the Dragon sensor for Scarlet there was always a giant Asterix *even if it was just metaphorical* that preceded the clause TBD (see the :39 second mark in the video proof you provided). To me TBD signals that it may not happen, no promises are being made, if it does happen it may cost more than the Epic upgrade path.

When I bought the first Scarlet I knew the score, when I bought the second 'battle tested' Scarlet I knew the score. Between buying the first Scarlet and now I've made a shitload of money from it - the camera (in fact both of them) owe me nothing…. and by extension since RED never promised anything about Scarlet & Dragon they don't owe me anything either.

The upgrade path is Epic and a fistful of dollars.

The upgrade path from my Chevy pickup truck to a new 'Vette Stingray is a fistful of dollars - which I don't understand because really it's just four wheels a couple of seats and an engine...
 
23537.jpg
 
Here is Jarred's quote on the Scarlet trade in for Dragon:


Jarred Land said:
This is likely to affect the price of the upgrade a bit.. and its going to close the door on any chance of a Scarlet to be able to upgrade to Dragon.

We are however.. going to be offering a trade-in program much like we did with the R1 for Scarlet customers to get into an Epic Dragon.
Click to expand...
 
To be fair, I do remember Jannard and/or Jarred saying that there will be an upgrade path for Scarlet to Dragon and that they will figure something out to make that happen. Quite some time before they took it back (with above quote).
On the other hand, we all know that that doesn't have to mean anything...so buying Scarlet based on those early chatters may be a little bit of your own fault as well.
 
Bob Gundu said:
Why do I feel like I'm in the film Ground Hogs Day?
Click to expand...

Why, because it's February 2nd?

dun dun duuuunnnn... Shyamalan-twist.

I can see where the OP is coming from; 4.5k and 2k/120fps are definitely great and would have been cheaper. And now that you're going to have to pay a buttload to "upgrade" (presumably much more than the original purchase price) it kind of does EOL the Scarlet (not it's form-factor mind you, but that's not really a good consolation for someone who bought the camera hoping it'd be bleeding-edge for years rather than months.)

Sure the trade-in is more than any other company would give, but something tells me the majority of Scarlet owners were expecting (as per RED's own suggestion) that the price of Dragon Sensor was to be less than the original Scarlet Brain cost instead of potentially double the original brain cost. If they had known, potential purchasers *may* have opted for an FS700 last year (to hold them over) and then an F5 this year... it would have been cheaper and given them a B-cam (or they could have sold the FS700 to offset the F5 purchase to make it even cheaper by comparison). So yeah, I know there are a few Scarlet owners who *assumed* they would essentially be getting a bleeding-edge camera re-fresh for less than $9700 that probably aren't going to get that (if the Scarlet-to-Epic-D is only $9700, I'd imagine Epic owners would shit all over RED.)

That said (and I realize no one likes to hear this), if you bought the camera for what it *might* eventually become (even if the manufacturer heavily suggested it), you can't really hold anyone but yourself accountable for that decision/gamble. It's understandable to feel slighted (you bought the hype) but the solution is a simple/obvious one; sell your RED gear and buy the camera solution that better fits your needs. Conversely, if there is a next time, wait 12-18months (for price drop and/or upgrade details to be finalized) before buying a RED camera.
 
Drew Baird said:
This thread is a joke.

Hey, here is a joke I heard earlier:

How much does a hipster weigh?

....An Instagram!!! Get it!?!
Click to expand...

This isn't a time for jokes - I don't think you understand the OP's anguish and pain. He bought a second hand used Scarlet from a 3rd party and he expects a dragon upgrade. He was suckered into buying a Scarlet only to find out that it was dead useless irrelevant technology… The final insult is that everyone wants an Alexa for their next project and not the Scarlet. Only with Dragon will he be a complete and competent filmmaker!

It's hard.

*** I hope you can all read the heavy dollop of sarcasm in my typing***
 
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I don't know what world most people live in but choosing between a Scarlet and an Alexa has never been the case. It's always been Epic or Alexa. I've never worked on a shoot where the producers were picking between Scarlet and Alexa... That's a terrible excuse.

If you can barely afford a Scarlet there's no way in hell you could afford an Alexa. So I don't really understand the complaint. You purchased what you could afford at the time (and was the best option for the given price range), otherwise spend more money, buy an Epic, then have the upgrade options and more rental potential. Or buy an Alexa and stop bitching to RED. I just don't understand all of these complaints. Do your research, make a smart decision based on your market and what will make you money. If it's not RED, don't do it. It's common sense...

If you are upset over the trade in option, sell your camera now. It will be better for you in the long run and you'll get more money now then when you wait for the trade in. Again this is common sense. Not trying to piss off the OP, I'm just trying to speak some common sense into the topic. This isn't RED's fault, they just sold you the camera that you wanted. No guarantee of Dragon upgrade was ever made, ever. I think the fact they offer an upgrade path proves they are a company who appreciates their customers. Good luck getting that at Arri...

End rant.
 
Matt Ryan said:
This isn't RED's fault, they just sold you the camera that you wanted. No guarantee of Dragon upgrade was ever made, ever.

End rant.
Click to expand...

I'm agreeing with you Matt & I think the funniest thing is the OP didn't buy his camera from RED but rather used 2nd hand and still expects an upgrade.
 
If Scarlet is indeed being retired by Red, Red needs to clearly state that to customers and communicate a support plan through end of life. They have not done so. Saying there is no upgrade path for Scarlet to Dragon is equivalent to saying the Scarlet platform will be retired which is OK. That said, Scarlet still has a substantial installed base many of whom don't want to be forced into trade in and trade up. Call it what you will, but it is forced obsolescence at a premium price for users who already have a substantial investment in the platform. Forced obsolescence does not mean "obsolescence obsolete". The 4-Xk space will get increasingly more competitive after NAB 2013 and there will be more quality choices at competitive prices. Not all Red customers are "chasing the Dragon" . In fairness to Scarlet customers (old and new), Red needs to come clean soon with a concrete upgrade/migration path (trade in and trade up) and a support strategy for Scarlet through end of life.
 
Dion Eusepi said:
If Scarlet is indeed being retired by Red, Red needs to clearly state that to customers and communicate a support plan through end of life. They have not done so. Saying there is no upgrade path for Scarlet to Dragon is equivalent to saying the Scarlet platform will be retired which is OK. That said, Scarlet still has a substantial installed base many of whom don't want to be forced into trade in and trade up. Call it what you will, but it is forced obsolescence at a premium price for users who already have a substantial investment in the platform. Forced obsolescence does not mean "obsolescence obsolete". The 4-Xk space will get increasingly more competitive after NAB 2013 and there will be more quality choices at competitive prices. Not all Red customers are "chasing the Dragon" . In fairness to Scarlet customers (old and new), Red needs to come clean soon with a concrete upgrade/migration path (trade in and trade up) and a support strategy for Scarlet through end of life.
Click to expand...

Just to be clear, the original "Upgrade Path" for the DSMC concept was that all of your accessories are reusable, and you only have to replace the brain. The fact that Red decided to start swapping out sensors was an unexpected bonus in my mind.

I think it's a little childish to pay $10K for a camera and then be outraged when professional productions would rather shoot on Epics and Alexas. If you can't recoup $10K off your camera in a year, you probably made a poor business decision.
 
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