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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Going to Be a Bit "Upset" if We Don't Get Dragon Upgrade

I've been talking to RED directly and they've been awesome, as usual. My impression is that just taking your Scarlet in and getting the Dragon isn't happening... you have to trade in your Scarlet and you get a credit to buy an Epic with the Dragon at a discounted price. The figure was always $6K for the Epic, TBD for the Scarlet. However, there're about a $12K difference in body price between the Scarlet and Epic right now... then factor in the $6K more for the sensor... and it's roughly an $18K difference in camera price. If they knock it down, say, $6K, it would still be $12K out of pocket.

And again, I do agree that no other company does trade-ins like RED does. It was awesome of them to retro-fit the original R1's when they didn't have to. The Scarlet's launch has been, honestly, a mess... all of the delays, the changes in design (thank God getting rid of the fixed lens), etc... and RED's owned that. So when it came out, Ted was at NAB touting the upgradability of it. He shouldn't have said a word and nobody could possibly "whine" about it. But it'd be like selling someone a hybrid car and saying that when the battery dies, you can pay a little more an swap it out... but then you buy it and, nope, if you now want that option, you're going to have to buy the more expensive car and THEN you can get originally what you were told you were buying.

At least it's "something" to keep the camera from being obsolete, if they're not going to support the Scarlet. I love the Scarlet... it has a great picture... but I also love the R1MX and all things being equal, they're identical. The Epic's advantage (currently) is the 5K.

And someone mentioned it... when you buy into RED, you're paying for this family mentality that they're a different kind of company than the Sonys, Panasonics, etc. I think the key issue with this is the over-promise of what Scarlet will be able to do. It shouldn't even have been released, honestly, it doesn't make any business sense. You dilute your Epic buyer base and you chop the value of the owners with the R1MXs. If they didn't release Scarlet, then people like me wouldn't be on here expecting anything... we would have just bought one of the hundreds of R1MXs out there.

Make sense?
 
paulherrin said:
jason, it's still a question of how much - it just probably won't say 'scarlet' on the side. but i'm sure you could just email jarred and ask him for a custom quote if it means that much to you.
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Thanks Paul. I've actually now been talking to Michael, been awesome to deal with. It sounds like they're gonna try to figure something out. But man, if that's all it is and they are able to give us some Frakensteined version of the Scarlet without the name, then that would be great news. Sounds like they're just trying to figure out the best next step.
 
Christopher Barrett said:
I remember cringing when I saw your post listing them for sale. I'm getting my Leica-Rs PL'd but may still have to hold onto the Mini-S4s... or as my wife calls them "Cookie Panchos"
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Yea, my girlfriend calls them cookies too.

I miss my cookies......
 
makes perfect sense. but before you figure it all out, let's state the obvious that you really haven't been following too closely. it makes absolutely no sense from their business end or the buyers end to retro-fit the camera with separate boards - it's going to cost just as much anyways. you're not getting tossed around. don't take my word for it, email them. otherwise, i'd expect we (including 'them) will know all the details around NAB if you can stand to be patient for a few weeks.
 
All I can say to all of this is.....I bought 2 RED ONE MX (BT) cameras and I am the happiest guy on the planet! I was hired to shoot 2 big features with A list stars attached and the Director didnt want the EPIC or a ALEXA or any other camera! He wanted it done on the RED ONE!! The RED ONE is IMO the best tool for us, WE LOVE the picture image of what it produces and of course, WE make our footage the best it can be because we know how to use the "tools" we have!!! RED ONE, EPIC & SCARLET ARE AWESOME! The NAME on your camera body is ONLY a name and a marketing tool. Its YOU THE OPERATOR that can take a SCARLET and make an OSCAR winning film for Cinematography if you put your mind to it. If you REALLY think about it, a SENSOR or 10K OR 20K is not going to matter at the end of the day.....Its your content, story, DP work, "framing" composition, lighting and sound that will get you accolades, NOT a sensor or the DRAGON or anything else! GO GET YOUR RED AND GO OUT THERE AND SHOOT YOUR FILM!!!
 
Timur Civan said:
Does the scarlet suck all of a sudden?

Cause i seem to remember shooting some of my best footage to date on it..... The Hassidic Jewish movie in the clip below. This was an assemblage of four scenes that will go toward my new reel. though, likely most of it will be dropped as i have shot some better stuff since. That said, the Scarlet footage is still some of my favorite.


PW reduser
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Wow, beautiful footage in your reel there Timur, the Scarlet footage looks incredible.
 
ONE MORE THING!!...It doesn't matter how much your camera is worth to your neighbor or the "industry" today or what it will be worth tomorrow. What does matter is "WHAT YOU DO WITH IT" TODAY OR TOMORROW!!! The RED ONE and SCARLET still shoot footage that is winning awards that are being talked about all over the world. THE VOICE THAT MATTERS MOST, IS THE ARTIST WHO CREATES IT!!!!
 
Jason - if you think that a R1 is better than Scarlet, you haven't thought it through. Too many things to list here about the form factor, the compatibility with Epic accessories, modularity, constant firmware upgrades, etc, etc.

As for the upgrade thing - you seem to be saying it's not about the price, but then complain about... the price. One thing I think you assumed that was never said or implied was that there would be two Dragons. RED never said that, although some folks on this forum did jump to that conclusion and, apparently, you fell into that camp. Only one Dragon as a "final destination" was promised. The pathway to that one Dragon, from Scarlet, was always going to involve going "through" Epic. If you wanted Dragon, you were, effectively always going to have to get yourself into an Epic first. The only question was whether you'd get there in one step or two.

As for "obsoleting" Scarlet, did you expect it would always be state-of-the-art? Surely not if you were aware that Dragon was coming. And Epic was always more powerful. So how is it that RED disappointed you? They are bending over backwards to deliver to you the updated performance that they promised.

FWIW, I am a Scarlet owner (a very happy one) and, despite the many benefits I see in the upgrade/trade-in, I may not choose to afford to go that route. That said, I am still thrilled with my Scarlet and what it can do. I have come to expect respect and fairness from RED in the way they deal with customers, but I don't expect them to give thing away.
 
Nobody can predict the future. I have no idea how far along Dragon was developed when Scarlet-X hit the store. Red is somewhat unique in that it actually can bring products to market faster than anyone else. I know it may not seem like that to many, but it's true. Yes they could have waited and have all the ducks in a row before any release. I'm not sure if you remember what the environment was like on that Nov 3, but Canon was indeed making some waves with product releases. RED always does what it seems right at the time. What Scarlet provided to many that day was an opportunity to get 80 percent of Epic for less than half the cost. Even looking at it today, it truly is astonishing. Of course RED at the time believed they could provide an upgrade path to the next gen sensor via part swaps. Obviously things have changed and Dragon is more costly than they planned. Well, it's a no brainer for the next logical step would be to offer a trade in program. I'm still better off with this route because, the camera has been working it's but off making money, and all the accessories work on the Epic. That certainly wouldn't have been the case going the Red One route. My advise is to buy stuff if you know it can be paid off within 6 months. Otherwise rent it.
 
Awesome "Scarlet" footage Timur!

Timur Civan said:
Does the scarlet suck all of a sudden?

Cause i seem to remember shooting some of my best footage to date on it..... The Hassidic Jewish movie in the clip below. This was an assemblage of four scenes that will go toward my new reel. though, likely most of it will be dropped as i have shot some better stuff since. That said, the Scarlet footage is still some of my favorite.


PW reduser
Click to expand...
 
Dan Frenkel said:
ONE MORE THING!!...It doesn't matter how much your camera is worth to your neighbor or the "industry" today or what it will be worth tomorrow. What does matter is "WHAT YOU DO WITH IT" TODAY OR TOMORROW!!! The RED ONE and SCARLET still shoot footage that is winning awards that are being talked about all over the world. THE VOICE THAT MATTERS MOST, IS THE ARTIST WHO CREATES IT!!!!
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At the end of the day, man, you're right. It's shocking how execs view production vs. how we do. They think that the bigger the camera, the better the picture... and I'm/we're splitting hairs about wanting a couple more stops of dynamic range. My DP I use when I direct is one of the best in LA, works on the biggest projects, but the one that he blew me away with the most was some super low budget video shot with a DVX100 with a lens adapter -- and he made it look like a feature. Unreal. A DVX100.
 
what happens when red decides to be normal?
-whole new body instead of an upgrade for all

so dont shit in the lake you are drinking from :)
my opinion, everybody can see it different.
of course i wish scarlet owners have a way to upgrade though.
 
Jason Honeycutt said:
And someone mentioned it... when you buy into RED, you're paying for this family mentality that they're a different kind of company than the Sonys, Panasonics, etc. I think the key issue with this is the over-promise of what Scarlet will be able to do.
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Unti Dragon and the Upgrade path are announced, everything right now is speculation and conjecture. RED have owned the term "obsolescence obsolete", and from various posts on these forums it seems clear that there will be some kind of solution for Scarlet owners when Dragon is announced. All we can do is wait.


Jason Honeycutt said:
It shouldn't even have been released, honestly, it doesn't make any business sense. You dilute your Epic buyer base and you chop the value of the owners with the R1MXs. If they didn't release Scarlet, then people like me wouldn't be on here expecting anything... we would have just bought one of the hundreds of R1MXs out there.
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I do not subscribe to this line of thinking. When my partners bought our two Scarlets, the RED ONE was 25k. The Scarlet was more affordable, more cutting edge, and it allowed us to easily pair up with DP's who had Epics.

The Scarlets have been our gateway to where RED is today, and have certainly primed us for owning Epic's and some later date, presumably with the dragon Sensor.

We never wanted Red One's. We wanted Scarlets. I know so many people that have entered the RED "family" via the Scarlet because the Epic was too expensive (as was the R1). I think the Scarlet, esp at its current price, is a fantastic gate-way drug into the RED workflow.

For us, the Battle Tested R1's were always a special "one off", and not something we thought seriously about (or fretted about).

Scarlet owners will be taken care of, we have to believe that. It won't be cheap, but then again...most companies don't even offer an upgrade/trade in program AT ALL.

We should consider ourselves very lucky.
 
Michel Rabe said:
Scarlet has been the best investment in my life so far.
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You need a second shooter or wrangler with a Scarlet? Cuz I can't seem to figure this thing out at all on monetizing lmfao!


But back to the topic at hand:

What would marginally bum me out, and I say the word marginally because I am the biggest fan boy ever...

Is if the program has strict deadlines for staging like the Epic program did. I am simply not making enough to all of a sudden be ready in time for this or that stage is my concern.

Versus

Treating it like the M to MX program, no deadline, no hassles, upgrade when you got the cash...

Now that latter situation is what I really really REALLY hope for! Cuz I only been outta school 2 years, went to a shitty school that lacks the brand recognition of the legitimate ones (my state school degree is in video production not "film"). I got cancer right outta school, been trying to work as much as possible and managed to get a Scarlet but boy its been a pretty rough ride starting in this economy sickly and I been pretty disillusioned lately since its been relatively slow. I got a couple great people that hit me up regularly, but as a camera tech with no ability to have a reel I am basically relying on reference and word of mouth as I build a reel as an operator on spec while mostly unemployed.

With all this bs aside I doubt at this time I will be ready in time for Dragon. Whether it costs 20k, or 40k, I just won't have it I am afraid. Maybe I can have like 10k, but its gonna be tough man, I am just too slow recently, but happily booked for March.. Took some abelcine classes, hoping to finish an operating reel soon, I got high hopes, but I have to say realistically even if it takes Red another year to get a Dragon available for me I would still be worried of coming up short and that is why regardless of specs/price point I hope I don't need to commit to a certain timing to do this upgrade. Cuz I really want faster frame rates and it'd be sweet to have that and not get stuck with my camera being executed if I am not liquid in time, in which case I will probably have to stick to this camera for years to come, which really isn't a bad thing but I'd like to move up to higher frame rates if I can...
 
This is from the Nov. 3rd Announcement:

"Can Scarlet-X be upgraded to the new Dragon sensor when it is released?
Yes. However the upgrade will be more expensive than upgrading an EPIC due to the necessity to change several primary boards. There will still be data rate limitations to Scarlet after the upgrade as compared with EPIC."

This quote is why I bought the Scarlet the day it was announced. Because it didn't have the low light performance I wanted when it was released, but they promised it would come in an upgrade.
 
They did say it was more expensive than upgrading an Epic. Just pretend the upgrade cost for your Scarlet is 15K. All good now.


Carey Lee Coffey said:
This is from the Nov. 3rd Announcement:

"Can Scarlet-X be upgraded to the new Dragon sensor when it is released?
Yes. However the upgrade will be more expensive than upgrading an EPIC due to the necessity to change several primary boards. There will still be data rate limitations to Scarlet after the upgrade as compared with EPIC."

This quote is why I bought the Scarlet the day it was announced. Because it didn't have the low light performance I wanted when it was released, but they promised it would come in an upgrade.
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