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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Glue tools?

Evin Grant

Evin Grant

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Have any of you worked with this, is it worth the money?
Does it work as stated and is it possible to do an online in FCP from 2K DPX files CC'd in Color?

Here's the workflow I'd like to achieve...

Offline in FCP using H proxies (already working)
Export XML from FCP into Crimson (already wroks)
First light RAW transfer to 2K DPX using Redcine. (already works)
Assemble back in FCP using Crimson & Glue Tools for export as reels into Color. (????)
DI in Color using 2K DPX (Already works, if a little buggy)
Final online in FCP using Glue Tools (????)

Thoughts and real world experience would be great.
Thanks.

Workstation:
3.0Ghz 8 Core Mac pro 12GB RAM (Leopard only)
ATI Radeon HD2600 (Could upgrade to the Nvidea 8800 easily enough)
Raid system capable of 400GB/s
 
Evin Grant said:
Have any of you worked with this, is it worth the money?
Does it work as stated and is it possible to do an online in FCP from 2K DPX files CC'd in Color?

Here's the workflow I'd like to achieve...

Offline in FCP using H proxies (already working)
Export XML from FCP into Crimson (already wroks)
First light RAW transfer to 2K DPX using Redcine. (already works)
Assemble back in FCP using Crimson & Glue Tools for export as reels into Color. (????)
DI in Color using 2K DPX (Already works, if a little buggy)
Final online in FCP using Glue Tools (????)

Thoughts and real world experience would be great.
Thanks.

Workstation:
3.0Ghz 8 Core Mac pro 12GB RAM (Leopard only)
ATI Radeon HD2600 (Could upgrade to the Nvidea 8800 easily enough)
Raid system capable of 400GB/s
Click to expand...


I have tested GlueTools in FCP and can say that GlueTools is amazing! Only wild card in your workflow that you outlined right now, is that Crimson Workflow is not supporting GlueTools YET. Supposedly its on the road map for Crimson Workflow to support GlueTools in which case you could edit proxies or work with ProRes files for offline, Crimson your timeline over to REDCINE, export DPX's and re-conform back in FCP via the Crimson Roundtrip, then CC in Color and finish in FCP.

Evin it looks like you have a RAID capable of handling the 320MB's constant read speed needed so you should be okay but its not just disk speed that you will require (read below for explanation). I haven't done an end to end test with it yet since it wasn't supported in the Crimson app yet but maybe its worth testing just to see. I'm thinking, that if your File names correspond to the original clip naming structure that it could work.
Also, here is some information i received from Robert Monaghan from GlueTools. i inquired about the importance of Disk Speed compared to CPU requirements to run realtime 2K DPX Sequences in FCP. Below was his response.

"Believe it or not, I just built my own SAS raid.
It delivers 1 Gig/sec, which is more than enough to playback HD frames
in FCP. The only requirement is that you have a fast computer to handle the
workload in FCP. I have discovered that while playback in QuickTime
player is rock solid, FCP drains the performance of playback of DPX frames.
I have solid HD playback
using an 8-core 2.8Ghz system. 2K (2048x1556) is sluggish at best, however.
2K frames have 30% more data to deal with. Ironically, QuickTime Player can playback 2k frames at just under 30fps on my system."

So, sounds like 2K is pushing it but if you have a new, fast MacPro with a fast enough RAID, you should be able to do 1080p in FCP without issues. Your system should work just fine. My opinion, GlueTools kicks butt and is well worth the money. They have a new version coming out at NAB so if your going, stop by the booth and have a quick chat. You could always test the desired workflow with their demo version that you can download free from their site. http://www.gluetools.com/
Now, go drop Ian a line requesting the GlueTools support feature enhancement to Crimson and you will be set!

Hope that helps a little.
 
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the remarks! I just wanted to mention that I haven't posted v3.0 on my site yet. I expect to make it publicly available on Friday evening (PDT). We will be setting up for NAB at that time, so it will be hard to pin down an exact time. v2.5.12b, which is the current version on the site, is pretty old.

If anyone wants to try v3.0 out, however, I can email a release candidate to you before then.

Bob..
Glue Tools
www.gluetools.com

mikeburton said:
I have tested GlueTools in FCP and can say that GlueTools is amazing! Only wild card in your workflow that you outlined right now, is that Crimson Workflow is not supporting GlueTools YET. Supposedly its on the road map for Crimson Workflow to support GlueTools in which case you could edit proxies or work with ProRes files for offline, Crimson your timeline over to REDCINE, export DPX's and re-conform back in FCP via the Crimson Roundtrip, then CC in Color and finish in FCP.

Evin it looks like you have a RAID capable of handling the 320MB's constant read speed needed so you should be okay but its not just disk speed that you will require (read below for explanation). I haven't done an end to end test with it yet since it wasn't supported in the Crimson app yet but maybe its worth testing just to see. I'm thinking, that if your File names correspond to the original clip naming structure that it could work.
Also, here is some information i received from Robert Monaghan from GlueTools. i inquired about the importance of Disk Speed compared to CPU requirements to run realtime 2K DPX Sequences in FCP. Below was his response.

"Believe it or not, I just built my own SAS raid.
It delivers 1 Gig/sec, which is more than enough to playback HD frames
in FCP. The only requirement is that you have a fast computer to handle the
workload in FCP. I have discovered that while playback in QuickTime
player is rock solid, FCP drains the performance of playback of DPX frames.
I have solid HD playback
using an 8-core 2.8Ghz system. 2K (2048x1556) is sluggish at best, however.
2K frames have 30% more data to deal with. Ironically, QuickTime Player can playback 2k frames at just under 30fps on my system."

So, sounds like 2K is pushing it but if you have a new, fast MacPro with a fast enough RAID, you should be able to do 1080p in FCP without issues. Your system should work just fine. My opinion, GlueTools kicks butt and is well worth the money. They have a new version coming out at NAB so if your going, stop by the booth and have a quick chat. You could always test the desired workflow with their demo version that you can download free from their site. http://www.gluetools.com/
Now, go drop Ian a line requesting the GlueTools support feature enhancement to Crimson and you will be set!

Hope that helps a little.
Click to expand...
 
cool that you joined this site...

can you explain the difference between gluetools and aja DPXtoQT/QTtoDPX.

Can you explain How Gluetools works in relation to COLOR and After Effects/Automatic Duck?

I am really interessted in Gluetools
 
The comparison to AJA's DPXtoQT/QTtoDPX is pretty simple.
When my software is installed, you simply drag and drop a DPX frame onto QuickTime Player, and you can play the sequence. No conversion needed.

Beyond that, the Cineon/DPX software lets any QuickTime application playback and work with these frames as if they were already a native QuickTime movie format. You can import and export as needed.

With Final Cut Pro for instance, (which is a QuickTime aware application) you can now work with Cineon or DPX frames natively without conversion. You can essentially edit "online" at full res. (2k is a bit of a problem at the moment, as FCP requires a fair bit of overhead. It works.. but clunky. This will improve over time.)

Regardless of FCP, with my software, the whole OS becomes Cineon and DPX friendly.

AJA's software is a simple converter, that only works with AJA movies files.

As for Color and AfterEffects, they already work with Cineon or DPX frames. They don't need my software to operate. However, using my software, in conjunction with Color and AfterEffects, makes a workflow a lot easier.
(ie: you can stay in the DPX format, without having to convert frames all the time.)

Hope this helps..

bob.


can you explain the difference between gluetools and aja DPXtoQT/QTtoDPX.

Can you explain How Gluetools works in relation to COLOR and After Effects/Automatic Duck?
Click to expand...
 
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Bob, the Red's native aspect ratio is 2:1 right now, so a 2K Red DPX is only very slightly larger (2.07MP Vs. 2.09MP) than 1080P HD so it sounds like you think realtime performance could be achieved on a 3.0GHz 8 Core with 12GB of RAM and a fast Raid yes?
 
And not to hijack this thread ... but if you start playing in the DPX world (much more sane and efficient than the QT world) - you should really look at AJA's 2K Xena cards - the Machina software lets' you capture and play to tape - 2K DPX - and yeah .... you can bootcamp it -

Quicktime blows. DPX works.

from AJA.com :

With XENA, you can record data directly from SD and HD decks,
telecines, and film scanners into any of the following file
formats: DPX, Cineon, TGA, TIFF, BMP, AVI and QuickTime™.
Got audio? Up to 16 audio tracks of embedded digital audio or
multi-channel are supported. AES and Analog support is
included as well on some XENA models. Audio files can be
mono or stereo, QuickTime or WAV.

Choose the right XENA toplayback HD/SD or SD-onlyvideo
and audio datafrom disk—even 2K—in any format you choose,
including DPX, Cineon, TGA, TIFF, BMP, AVI and QuickTime.

Playback SD/HD material, at a variety of frame rates, on a
high-resolution wide-screen monitor or digital projector. XENA
allows you to play back files from disk in all supported formats.
Full control over the playback parameters are clearly laid out,
including provisions for choosing a user-specified LUT.

Machina provides users with a vast array of
uncompressed capture options ranging from Quicktime to DPX.
It provides userswith the ability tochoose from many capture
options including bit depth, colorspace, and audio capture
options. Machina can also output in all the same formats which
it can capture. All these capture and output options are
complimented with deck control.

Machina has great desktop preview features. Users can preview
their files full screen on their desktop display at various zoom
levels, creating an alternative for frame by frame viewing when
no additional monitor is available. In addition it affords the user
the power apply 1D LUT’s on output, to output video+key for
monitoring or mixing, and the ability to key in static graphics on
selected XENA cards.
 
The only comment I would make, is that while the XENA card is a great and flexible tool, it isn't very portable for Laptop users, can't work with anything other than 10-bit DPX frames, nor can it handle "odd-sized" frames very easily.

The frames are also stripped of their metadata. This breaks that very important chain of information that productions often need. Timecode is also at danger of being lost. Colorspace information also disappears, too.

Hardware cards are also expensive, and you need an HD-SDI setup to see the frames.

The up-side is that they allow machines with limited performance to playback 10-bit imagery. Its another way to do a similar job.
 
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Offhollywood said:
?? - don't you mean you are just choosing to shoot 2:1 on the native 16x9 aspect ratio?
Click to expand...

Yes and no, it is a 16x9 sensor camera but unless you are going to strictly limit yourself to redcine conversion then 2:1 is the only sensible 4k format to shoot. As soon as they get 16:9 proxy's working that'll change. I am becoming quite fond of 2:1 for narrative work though.
 
I hope Apple make an offer that Bob can't refuse and GlueTools become part of Final Cut Studio. You can't pretend to be pro and not read DPX/Cineon files.

Let's hope this NAB brings good news, because it seems we are in a workflow hell in this moment if you want to maximize quality...
 
Evin Grant said:
unless you are going to strictly limit yourself to redcine conversion then 2:1 is the only sensible 4k format to shoot. As soon as they get 16:9 proxy's working that'll change. I am becoming quite fond of 2:1 for narrative work though.
Click to expand...
or Scratch of course. I did two movies on the 2:1 and I am fond of it as well ... but once you go 16x9 Redcode 36 ... pretty hard to go back.
 
Kreisky said:
do you really ?
first they should work on color......
Click to expand...

Let's say that Apple has a lot of work to do!!! :wacko:

I would love to open DPX inside FCP and be able to grade at 10 bits without sending clips anywhere... :sorcerer:
 
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  • #17
Offhollywood said:
or Scratch of course. I did two movies on the 2:1 and I am fond of it as well ... but once you go 16x9 Redcode 36 ... pretty hard to go back.
Click to expand...

Well mark unless you'd like to start "ONhollywood" (Although technically I'm about a 1000 Ft. away from Hollywood Blvd.) and drop a Scratch seat off at my place, It's still gonna be 2:1 for me for a little while. But I'm open to a merger:greedy:
 
Don't know about RED, but Gluetools seems to be popular with Phantom HD users. Seems to me the workflow has parallels between the 2 cameras and that they complement each other really well, in that if you're geared-up for post and general workflow with one you'll be well on the way to being geared up for the other.
Steve
 
gluetools said:
The frames are also stripped of their metadata. This breaks that very important chain of information that productions often need. Timecode is also at danger of being lost. Colorspace information also disappears, too.
Click to expand...

Not when I render to DPX from REDCODE in Scratch. I get all the meta data.

My point for posting was simply that DPX workflow offers MUCH more power and efficiency than QT. You can monitor and ay off to tape from DPX with ease.

I obviously consider GlueTools to be an essenital part of a mac based - or cross-platform shop that wants to utilize DPX workflows.

I think folks will really dig GlueTools V3.0
:devil:
 
Offhollywood said:
Not when I render to DPX from REDCODE in Scratch. I get all the meta data.

My point for posting was simply that DPX workflow offers MUCH more power and efficiency than QT. You can monitor and ay off to tape from DPX with ease.

I obviously consider GlueTools to be an essenital part of a mac based - or cross-platform shop that wants to utilize DPX workflows.

I think folks will really dig GlueTools V3.0
:devil:
Click to expand...

GlueTools V3.0 and Crimson 1.0 could be the tools that one small RED kiosk needs for post.
 
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