- Thread starter
- #41
Ned Wilson
Well-known member
Good to know. Thanks
Welcome to our community
Be a part of something great, join today!
Gimbals 2.0 - The Quest for the perfect Gimbal.
- Thread starter Ned Wilson
- Start date
Good to know. Thanks
- Thread starter
- #42
Ned Wilson
Well-known member
Hey, keep it civil please. I don't want this thread to break down to mudslinging fest on my gimbal is better than yours. I'm trying to get constructive input on how they can be improved. So please, let's tone down rhetoric down, if you can.
Last edited:
GT Le
Well-known member
Hi Ned,
Malik's Helix seems to be a troublesome unit that stumped us a little but we will get to the bottom of it. With him being on location (remotely at that) it's been hard to find a solid block of time to get to the bottom of it. We appreciate his patience as we understand how frustrating it must have been. Like I said we will get to the bottom of it and solve this mystery soon.
As for the questions regarding to the Helix interface, I agree with you that our software interface been difficult for many of our users up to this point, but that is about to change. With our iOS app, users can now choose from profiles we've created for common setups. These profiles will not be based on some autotuning equation but will be tested and proven solutions. Users can also create their own profiles with simple tools and store them in their library. Tools are provided to troubleshoot any problems that arise, so that you aren't stuck with the results of autotuning (whether it works or not), as you might be with other gimbals' software. Any number of profiles can be saved in the library and written to the Helix with the touch of a button.
Profile summaries allow you to see which profiles are currently stored on the Helix, quickly and easily. The vast array of settings in our current software has been pared down to just those most people need. The computer interface is always available for those that truly want to push the envelope and use their expert knowledge to do so.
Now... we just need Apple to approve the latest release
Malik's Helix seems to be a troublesome unit that stumped us a little but we will get to the bottom of it. With him being on location (remotely at that) it's been hard to find a solid block of time to get to the bottom of it. We appreciate his patience as we understand how frustrating it must have been. Like I said we will get to the bottom of it and solve this mystery soon.
As for the questions regarding to the Helix interface, I agree with you that our software interface been difficult for many of our users up to this point, but that is about to change. With our iOS app, users can now choose from profiles we've created for common setups. These profiles will not be based on some autotuning equation but will be tested and proven solutions. Users can also create their own profiles with simple tools and store them in their library. Tools are provided to troubleshoot any problems that arise, so that you aren't stuck with the results of autotuning (whether it works or not), as you might be with other gimbals' software. Any number of profiles can be saved in the library and written to the Helix with the touch of a button.
Profile summaries allow you to see which profiles are currently stored on the Helix, quickly and easily. The vast array of settings in our current software has been pared down to just those most people need. The computer interface is always available for those that truly want to push the envelope and use their expert knowledge to do so.
Now... we just need Apple to approve the latest release
- Thread starter
- #44
Ned Wilson
Well-known member
Hi Ned,
Malik's Helix seems to be a troublesome unit that stumped us a little but we will get to the bottom of it. With him being on location (remotely at that) it's been hard to find a solid block of time to get to the bottom of it. We appreciate his patience as we understand how frustrating it must have been. Like I said we will get to the bottom of it and solve this mystery soon.
As for the questions regarding to the Helix interface, I agree with you that our software interface been difficult for many of our users up to this point, but that is about to change. With our iOS app, users can now choose from profiles we've created for common setups. These profiles will not be based on some autotuning equation but will be tested and proven solutions. Users can also create their own profiles with simple tools and store them in their library. Tools are provided to troubleshoot any problems that arise, so that you aren't stuck with the results of autotuning (whether it works or not), as you might be with other gimbals' software. Any number of profiles can be saved in the library and written to the Helix with the touch of a button.
Profile summaries allow you to see which profiles are currently stored on the Helix, quickly and easily. The vast array of settings in our current software has been pared down to just those most people need. The computer interface is always available for those that truly want to push the envelope and use their expert knowledge to do so.
Now... we just need Apple to approve the latest release
This is good news indeed. I can't wait to see the software upgrade. In the meantime have you considered going worm screw adjustment for XYZ axis? No other manufacturer does it. Steadicam do for good reason. Just finished a gimbal job today, and even though I can swap lenses and balance in a couple minutes, I'm still kicking around with lock and pray method of adjustment. The lack of quick calibration is the achilles heel of all the gimbals out there. It's new and exciting tech so people accept a certain amount of delay. In six months it'll be unacceptable on legit productions to the point they go back to their steadicam op on speed dial.
I had a Steadicam Merlin that had worm screw adjustment. Painless. Everytime I balance a gimbal without it, I say to myself WTF? What year is this? So if you add this to your software upgrades, it could really launch gimbals the right way. So many gimbal renters/users have given gimbals a bad name because how long it takes to turnaround a lens/fitlers and recalibrate. It is such an obvious problem and so simple to solve that I can't wrap my head around the industry wide ignoring of it. Imagine a lens that required you to wind it up every time you had to focus.
I've worked with directors and clients who's first concern with a gimbal is how long is the turnaround. So long as its tools are quick release or allen key instead of worm screw adjustment, all gimbals will pose productions questions about time v quality. The re-balance time equates to lost shots. If it isn't solved, there will be a backlash. if not already. Do you know how often and fast we must change ND's? It's the lack of interest to solve an obvious problem makes me wonder how much do the beta models get in the hands of working cameramen. This drawback would have been ripped on in beta by any self respecting operator.
Must we wait for Arnold and Richter to show us how it's done?
Last edited:
GT Le
Well-known member
Hi Ned,
Let's just say that all this is not falling on deaf ears
Let's just say that all this is not falling on deaf ears
Zeb B
Well-known member
Hi Ned,
Let's just say that all this is not falling on deaf ears
Always weigh feature requests against Weight, Cost and Complexity. Microsoft Word became a bloated collection of features and therefore unusable. Helix is simple and elegant - don't loose that design standard. Keep it clean and simple. Like iPhone - not Dell
Zeb B
Well-known member
No worries Mate. Just saying that gimbals, and other complex gear, isn't for everyone. Some are better off keeping away from emerging technology until it's fully developed and real simple to use. Then there's guys like Tom Lowe who was hot rodding shit together to make some of the first 4K time lapse years before the rest of us knew what was up. Today you can buy complete 3+ axis motion control systems that an 8 year old kid can program from an iPhone. Tom was getting it done before there was an iPhone.
The rewards go to those who attack the hard stuff before it's reduced to the level of an 8 year old.
https://vimeo.com/dreamcorepics
Malik Tigrine
Well-known member
You don't know my work and my skill so please do not take me for an idiot, this is not complex gear, only the software of Alexmos is complex. You don't understand the interest of this topic, we are talking about the advantage and default of the different gimbals. It's not all the gimbals which are complex. I was just saying that a gimbal like the Ronin is more simple to configure, how can you gainsay that ? I'm not saying that the Ronin is better than the Helix, this is not the case. I would never take the Ronin instead of the Helix.
Last edited:
Nick Gardner
Well-known member
Since the Helix is based on the BaseCam software have any of you guys read the tutorials etc for setting up an Alexmos system? I understand that if it's your first exposure to the system it can be sort of confusing, but if you understand whats going on, it's pretty easy to get good results quickly. This is a pretty straight forward explanation of whats going on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TTDmWiMg_Y
Nick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TTDmWiMg_Y
Nick
Malik Tigrine
Well-known member
Very interesting link.
- Thread starter
- #51
Ned Wilson
Well-known member
Again, the idea of this thread isn't a pissing contest on cutting edge acumen but improving a brilliant idea. So lend your brilliance and tell us what you've in mind.
- Thread starter
- #52
Ned Wilson
Well-known member
Don't take the bait. I've witnessed this MO before. It's best to be mildly entertained and then re-focus the original intent of the thread.
Simplicity is king. The tech road is littered with great ideas that were scuttled by complexity. The Alexa is the perfect case of hitting a home run because of seeing what others were doing then improving and simplifying upon it. The Sony menu can drive a man to drink. The same will happen with gimbals hopefully sooner than later and not at Arri prices.
Our job as DPs / Ops primarily is one of aesthetics and storytelling. While it's admirable some will pave the tech way for us, time being our most valuable commodity, we cannot lose our focus in the minutia of say, XYZ axis adjustments. After my last gig on Monday, even though we had our lens changes / re-balance down to 3-4 minutes, that's way too long for magic hour. If a lens swap without a gimbal takes a minute (with Wireless FF, etc), then with a gimbal it should be 1 minute 30 sec. That's what forward thinking gimbal makers should be gunning for in their field tests (if they really do them, I have my doubts).
- Thread starter
- #53
Ned Wilson
Well-known member
Thanks. Good link.
- Thread starter
- #54
Ned Wilson
Well-known member
Can you talk about what improvements you think Movi can make in their next iteration? How is it for XYZ axis re-balance between glass? I've used Movi's before but always with an assistant well versed in it, not as an owner op. I appreciate Movi's attention to weight saving. To be honest, being the first, I've been expecting a major update beyond the M15 specs.
Nick Gardner
Well-known member
In general I think gimbals are a mediocre solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I think they are great for multicopters, cable cams, probably if someone could build an encoded, accurate wheel controller system for them they would revolutionize small cranes. I mean shit, you put a jimmy jib in the bed of a pick up truck with a gimbal on the end and you have a seriously high dollar looking set up for next to nothing. I think they are probably also great for no budget shows and sports, or music videos. But as soon as you get any kind of a budget 99.9% of the time there is a better way to get the shot. So far I don't think gimbals are better at anything than anything else. They certainly aren't faster than steadicam, or better than steadicam, or faster than a dolly, of better than a dolly. There are very very few things that they can do that other systems can't but now, those things can be done by a steadicam with a single axis stabilizer on it. That basically turns a steadicam into an Alien Revolution.
I wonder if gimbal technology will evolve into mature tech in steadicam and cranes. I mean the whole exoskeleton thing to then have a sloppy gimbal that takes forever to set up, limits your lens choices, and tools, is not moving us forward. It's not making film making easier or faster. Maybe it's making it cheaper to pull of some shots, but at what cost in terms of time and compromises?
I dunno. It's interesting times. Something like the DJI inspire is the perfect evolution of the brushless gimbal. It works absolutely fucking perfectly. But it has one lens and a purpose built camera and it's tiny. Cameras may be getting smaller, but lenses aren't and ACs still want on board monitors and cinetapes and tons of crap on the camera, so I don't know if gimbals are going to evolve into an essential part of the camera kit. I have had one commercial where we had to do a shot that couldn't be done any other way than with a BG on the end of a steadicam since they came out. I have never been on a shoot and thought "Man! if only we had a BG....".
We'll see, as I said, interesting times.
Nick
I wonder if gimbal technology will evolve into mature tech in steadicam and cranes. I mean the whole exoskeleton thing to then have a sloppy gimbal that takes forever to set up, limits your lens choices, and tools, is not moving us forward. It's not making film making easier or faster. Maybe it's making it cheaper to pull of some shots, but at what cost in terms of time and compromises?
I dunno. It's interesting times. Something like the DJI inspire is the perfect evolution of the brushless gimbal. It works absolutely fucking perfectly. But it has one lens and a purpose built camera and it's tiny. Cameras may be getting smaller, but lenses aren't and ACs still want on board monitors and cinetapes and tons of crap on the camera, so I don't know if gimbals are going to evolve into an essential part of the camera kit. I have had one commercial where we had to do a shot that couldn't be done any other way than with a BG on the end of a steadicam since they came out. I have never been on a shoot and thought "Man! if only we had a BG....".
We'll see, as I said, interesting times.
Nick
Karl Kim
Well-known member
Well Nick, I have, uhm, no experience with a gimbal but I picked up a 3 axis Letus and I'm going to put it on a steadicam (1 axis) and likely on a small jib (Letus 4 axis) to play with and test. I do have a bit of experience with a steadicam, though I no longer work as a steadi op.
When I first saw the Movi demo I thought, well, that's a 3 person operation- operator, ac pulling focus, and remote head operator. Steadi is a 2 person job. Plus, as a steadi op, I immediately thought the Movi is going to be very hard to hold for more than a couple of takes. But I immediately thought, that could be an inexpensive AR, and if it works, a good 1 axis system would chop two years of hard experience off steadicam- plus it could work as a light weight AR. I'll test and let you know as soon as I'm off this feature.
When I first saw the Movi demo I thought, well, that's a 3 person operation- operator, ac pulling focus, and remote head operator. Steadi is a 2 person job. Plus, as a steadi op, I immediately thought the Movi is going to be very hard to hold for more than a couple of takes. But I immediately thought, that could be an inexpensive AR, and if it works, a good 1 axis system would chop two years of hard experience off steadicam- plus it could work as a light weight AR. I'll test and let you know as soon as I'm off this feature.
Karl Kim
Well-known member
BTW, anyone blow away by what's possible with a gimbal needs to watch "Soy Cuba" filmed in the 1960's with 35mm cameras in Cuba, with a Russian and Cuban film crew. A gimbal only makes it easier and more accessible- it does not enable a totally new way of working.
Nick Gardner
Well-known member
Soy Cuba is one of my favorites, and I just built a single axis For my steadicam ;-) That isn't the final version. Biggest issue is high freak vibes, but a top plate as well as a bottom plate solved most of that. Surprisingly not as useful as you'd think. I built this other nutzo thing once for a commercial, and it was pretty cool, but the times you need it are so few.....Something cool is going to come from all of this ;-)
Nick
Nick
Attachments
Enrique Blein
Well-known member
Hi Ned,
Malik's Helix seems to be a troublesome unit that stumped us a little but we will get to the bottom of it. With him being on location (remotely at that) it's been hard to find a solid block of time to get to the bottom of it. We appreciate his patience as we understand how frustrating it must have been. Like I said we will get to the bottom of it and solve this mystery soon.
As for the questions regarding to the Helix interface, I agree with you that our software interface been difficult for many of our users up to this point, but that is about to change. With our iOS app, users can now choose from profiles we've created for common setups. These profiles will not be based on some autotuning equation but will be tested and proven solutions. Users can also create their own profiles with simple tools and store them in their library. Tools are provided to troubleshoot any problems that arise, so that you aren't stuck with the results of autotuning (whether it works or not), as you might be with other gimbals' software. Any number of profiles can be saved in the library and written to the Helix with the touch of a button.
Profile summaries allow you to see which profiles are currently stored on the Helix, quickly and easily. The vast array of settings in our current software has been pared down to just those most people need. The computer interface is always available for those that truly want to push the envelope and use their expert knowledge to do so.
Now... we just need Apple to approve the latest release
Hi GT Le, unfortunately I didn't include the Wifi option. Is this software only for Iphones or could it be installed in a Mac Book Pro? It sounds friendlier than the SimpleGUI I'm running now..it would be great if it could be run from outside the Iphone/Ipad realm...
Nick Gardner
Well-known member
I wouldn't be shy to reach out to Basecam, they are bragging on Letus, and are extremely helpful and have forums etc, and guys who know this shit inside and out. As Gi Joe says, Knowing is half the battle ;-)
https://www.basecamelectronics.com/
Nick
https://www.basecamelectronics.com/
Nick