Getting full Dynamic Range from Dragon

[Kemalettin Sert]

On paper Dragon beats every dslr camera on market.What im doing wrong with Dragon and not getting full DR out of it?
With D750 you can retrieve shadows from 5 stop under shot picture and still get decent results but with Dragon 1.5-2 stop under shadows gives only noise.Where is all this 15 stop DR hiding?
Check out this article; http://petapixel.com/2014/11/24/creative-underexposure-nikon-dslrs/

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

probably loosing something in the compression. DSLR is uncompressed raw from my understanding

 

[Martin Stevens]

Dragon does not do in-camera noise reduction.

 

[Phil Holland]

probably loosing something in the compression. DSLR is uncompressed raw from my understanding

Incorrect. Most of the DSLR raw formats are compressed raw formats rather similar to the concept behind REDCODE RAW.

Dragon does not do in-camera noise reduction.

Correct. Which means in this comparison you are looking at two camera systems that operate differently.

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

Ill be damned... you learn something new everyday

Incorrect. Most of the DSLR raw formats are compressed raw formats rather similar to the concept behind REDCODE RAW.




Correct. Which means in this comparison you are looking at two camera systems that operate differently.

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

16+ stops is marketing fluff. The extra stops are almost completely useless due to noise.

Dragon does not do in-camera noise reduction.

Neither do DSLRs when shooting RAW. Dragon is simply more noiser than DSLRs... smaller pixels (5.9 vs 5 microns on the dragon) and perhaps older sensor design due to a more limited R&D budget compared to Nikon / Sony etc. CFA design, backside illumination also come into play.

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

Incorrect. Most of the DSLR raw formats are compressed raw formats rather similar to the concept behind REDCODE RAW.

Redcode is lossy compressed
DSLR RAW is lossless compressed

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

@Phil nikon offers both compressed and uncompressed raw

 

[Phil Holland]

16+ stops is marketing fluff. The extra stops are almost completely useless due to noise.

Neither do DSLRs when shooting RAW. Dragon is simply more noiser than DSLRs... smaller pixels (5.9 vs 5 microns on the dragon) and perhaps older sensor design due to a more limited R&D budget compared to Nikon / Sony etc. CFA design, backside illumination also come into play.

Not exactly fluff at all really. The 16+ stops is there. Grab a meter, take any white paper and illuminate it in one stop increments, watch what happens in Gio Scope.

The nature of the beast is as you are getting closer to the noise floor the noisier that tone gets. This happens on DSLRs and all other cameras as well. Some employ noise reduction in the camera itself to tackle this issue. Some even do stranger things.

The main reason Dragon is noisier than DSLRs is the lack of in camera noise reduction or even the hardware to do such a thing. There are DSLRs are the market with the equivalent or smaller pixel pitch too.

 

[Phil Holland]

Redcode is lossy compressed
DSLR RAW is lossless compressed

@Phil nikon offers both compressed and uncompressed raw

Nikon offers the option for Uncompress Raw via the 14-bit NEF. However, it is not "raw" in the sense they are still doing their magic in camera NR to the image itself.

Interestingly enough DSLRs over the years have offered various levels of control over some of the noise reduction they employ, but base level processing we haven't had access to yet.

 

[Phil Holland]

And just to add to this as we are in a flux year technology-wise. I've also found the variance between image processing among manufacturers fascinating. Specifically when it comes to the Nikon/Sony way versus the Canon way in relationship to DSLRs. Owning and shooting with these systems showcases just what different noise reduction techniques like the Expeed, BIONZ X, or the Digic processors employ. It's interesting stuff.

I find it also interesting what Red has done with Dragon. Particularly with the implementation of D.E.B., but also the addition of A.D.D. for a more processor intensive technique.

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

Not exactly fluff at all really. The 16+ stops is there. Grab a meter, take any white paper and illuminate it in one stop increments, watch what happens in Gio Scope.

The nature of the beast is as you are getting closer to the noise floor the noisier that tone gets. This happens on DSLRs and all other cameras as well. Some employ noise reduction in the camera itself to tackle this issue. Some even do stranger things.

The main reason Dragon is noisier than DSLRs is the lack of in camera noise reduction or even the hardware to do such a thing. There are DSLRs are the market with the equivalent or smaller pixel pitch too.

Never said it wasn't there. ;- ) I'm just questioning the usability of those extra stops.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

ELI5 ; if those stops are there and usable why cant i achieve same results with Dragon on underexposed shots?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I would say 18 stops is completely unusable except from a scientific measurement perspective but 15-16 is definitely there. The problem is you're probably exposing for 800 ISO which means you're already digging into the shadows. Another thing to consider is that all of those stills on the website are 640x480. Dragon is pretty noise free at 640x480 too.

 

[Domenic Barbero]

Just to be totally sure, you are trying to pull those numbers from redlog film right?

 

[Les Dittert]

ELI5 ; if those stops are there and usable why cant i achieve same results with Dragon on underexposed shots?

Reminds me of some tests I did when I first got the 'new' Scarlet. I shot the same scene with that and a $200 craigs list Canon body, 12 MPixel. The Canon image was more detailed, especially in the deeper shadows where the Red J2000 compressor chucked the details.

Dragon compression is greatly improved from my own tests.
Posting example images does wonders for highlighting your concerns, and is educational for all. Full resolution crops are best.

 

[Todd Gilpin]

I think there is a misconception about dynamic range. Just because a camera retains detail into the shadows and the highlights across 16 stops does not mean you can underexpose the image and pull those detailed shadows up to normal exposure. Correct exposure for the given image or scene is still key.

 

[Andrew Allsbury]

Honestly the DR on Dragon is amazing, on MX we shot a ton of HDRx footage and merged in post...on Dragon I am yet to need to do this once. Personally I am blown away. You just need to expose properly. A!so we have not shot a ton on STH olpf...mostly LLO V2 at 2000 ISO.

 

[David Battistella]

Redcode is lossy compressed
DSLR RAW is lossless compressed

REDcode Wavelet based compression is mathematically uncompressed at the lowest compression ratios. I have yet to see compression artifacting in an r3d file. But to be fair, Les did some really good compression tests that illustrate the differences in compression choices.

battistella

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

REDcode Wavelet based compression is mathematically uncompressed at the lowest compression ratios. I have yet to see compression artifacting in an r3d file. But to be fair, Les did some really good compression tests that illustrate the differences in compression choices.

battistella

Yes, but only at 12 FPS. Not 24FPS.