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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Gemini vs Dragon X 6k

Aaron Almquist said:
For my work personally I shoot at the lowest possible ISO for the cleanest image and utilize the resolution for re-framing. I light most everything I shoot so using a dual-gain sensor at a lower resolution doesn't make much sense for me.
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Thank you for the clarification, How is the dynamic range of the dragon-x? What about highlights and colors?
 
Dragon X vs Gemini

Dragon X vs Gemini

We just spent 10 days filming with the Gemini. I was pretty impressed with the Gemini's latitude... we were shooting with the Cooke Anamorphics and the sensor definitely loves those lenses.
I know some more technically minded folks here have pointed out a bit of colour shift in the Gemini, so that's one thing to consider.
The Gemini seemed a little more buggy, and froze during playback a couple times and required a reboot once or twice.
If I were to choose I'd likely follow the advice of those on this forum who've looked deeper into the image and go the Gemini route.
I think you'd be very happy with either body, I love the Dragon X as a daily shooter. The 6K is a really nice image that I'm looking forward to pairing with the Komodo asap!
 
Thomas Buchan said:
We just spent 10 days filming with the Gemini. I was pretty impressed with the Gemini's latitude... we were shooting with the Cooke Anamorphics and the sensor definitely loves those lenses.
I know some more technically minded folks here have pointed out a bit of colour shift in the Gemini, so that's one thing to consider.
The Gemini seemed a little more buggy, and froze during playback a couple times and required a reboot once or twice.
If I were to choose I'd likely follow the advice of those on this forum who've looked deeper into the image and go the Gemini route.
I think you'd be very happy with either body, I love the Dragon X as a daily shooter. The 6K is a really nice image that I'm looking forward to pairing with the Komodo asap!
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Interesting, I need a camera that's reliable. I wonder if your experience represents the majority. Thank you for your input.
 
Just for the record, I owned two epic dragons, never had a problem with them. I just wrapped a feature in FL about 3 weeks ago. Some of the most awful conditions I have ever worked in. Ever. I have shot all over the world. Almost every single HMI I had on that movie went down due to humidty and heat. gemini never missed a beat. never had a problem with mine. It's hard to judge rental gear because you don't know how much stupid got all over it.

Nick
 
Just an FYI, the Gemini wasn't a rental. It was about a month old, studio owned.
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Was it your camera? My point is if it's not yours, you have no idea how it's been treated.

Nick
 
The Dynamic range of the Dragon sensor is incredible and has been vetted by many professionals over the years since it's been out. Highlights and Colors are beautiful as long as you capture them correctly.
 
Aaron Almquist said:
The Dynamic range of the Dragon sensor is incredible and has been vetted by many professionals over the years since it's been out. Highlights and Colors are beautiful as long as you capture them correctly.
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Yes but Gemini is better. Trust me my team shoots a lot on both sensors. Gemini is def better. But yes Dragon is good.
 
Thank you everyone for the input! I ordered a Gemini :)
 
I've also been unsure whether i made the right choice upgrading to Gemini from the Scarlet-W - I just got so used to the Dragon sensor image and i missed immediately on the first few shoots with Gemini - especially in post - I just really love that dragon image - in some ways - I sort of feel like I should've just kept the Scarlet-W and purchased a Dragon-X kit as a 2nd kit, and feel that would've given me more value for the upgrade price...

BUT, now that I've had the Gemini about 6-7 months ( 4 of which were dead due to covid ) I've been using it more frequently and I'm really starting to fall in love with the Gemini image - it's cleaner and it is different but i'm starting to like the colors and the DR etc.

I do agree though - it sought of feels a little buggier - nothing major - just a few restarts and a couple of quirks, def feels more sensitive compared to the SW Dragon but overall it has something special and now I just want to opt for the Komodo as a b-cam - gimbal cam etc
 
I just purchased a Gemini after several months renting a Dragon-X.

There is something I miss about the Dragon image. It had a character that felt a bit grittier.

The low light is insane on the Gemini, and the image is super flexible. But I’m still getting used to the newfound cleanliness.

I’m sure post Covid I’ll be able to shoot more and more and will fall in love with it too. Especially with some more interesting glass (I’ve only been shooting Sigmas until now, but recently acquired a Leica R set too).
 
Alex Campbell said:
I just purchased a Gemini after several months renting a Dragon-X.

There is something I miss about the Dragon image. It had a character that felt a bit grittier.

The low light is insane on the Gemini, and the image is super flexible. But I’m still getting used to the newfound cleanliness.

I’m sure post Covid I’ll be able to shoot more and more and will fall in love with it too. Especially with some more interesting glass (I’ve only been shooting Sigmas until now, but recently acquired a Leica R set too).
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Put two stops of ND and raise you ISO and you get somewhat the same kind of dragon grittiness in your Gemini.
 
I totally agree with others here.

Gemini can be too clean and somewhat "videoish" not only in its texture but also in its motion rendition/cadence.

As a whole it's a little bit more like Sony aesthetic wise, Dragon is the most filmic and organic sensor of all imho.

Also 6K is the only way to get true 4K after debayer, something to keep in mind...20% more can be a lot.
 
Tommaso Alvisi said:
Gemini can be too clean and somewhat "videoish" not only in its texture but also in its motion rendition/cadence.
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This is fascinating, and it's not something I've ever picked up on. I'm curious as to how a particular sensor can affect motion. Obviously with the motion mount, there are different ways of exposing the sensor (which I've seen but don't understand how it works). Aside from that, how is Gemini different from the other RED sensors in this regard?

I admit that a lot of the "character" qualities that people point to are hard for me to discern. I'm more likely to feel it than see it. A clean image does not scream "video" to me. Things that do: over-sharpening, lack of dynamic range, out-of-gamut color rendition, compression artifacts.
 
Gemini can be too clean and somewhat "videoish" not only in its texture but also in its motion rendition/cadence.
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I'm gonna say that comes down to taste and I couldn't disagree more.

Nick
 
Alan Greene said:
A clean image does not scream "video" to me.
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Nick Gardner said:
I'm gonna say that comes down to taste and I couldn't disagree more.
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Dragon is one of the few sensors which if exposed at 800 or more can gives you a wonderful texture instead of just awful noise and "grittiness" which renders it quite organic.

I know a bunch of people always use it at 1280 or even 2000 outdoors to not only have more highlight headroom but also to have that underlying texture.

With Gemini is different, you can't just shoot higher iso and get the same texture, it simply doesn't have the same character and feel.

Also, I didn't say good or bad, I just said Dragon has a more organic image out of the gate and closer to film than Gemini, which, again, it's closer to "video".

Cleanliness (Gemini) and too much resolution (Helium) can give the impression of something "different" than film...

Again, I let you to decide if it's good or bad depending on the kind of jobs you do, but it's pretty much a shared opinion...

Basically 80% if not more of all the high end commercial and narrrative stuff is shot with diffusion/softening filters and grain added in post for this same reason, to get closer to what film represented.

I'm not here to defend this approach, hell there is who push for HFR and 8K/12K cinema...so this is not a debate on that...

BTW I suspect this is also why you see more Geminis and Heliums for sale VS Dragon-X or DSMC2 Dragons in general...
 
Tommaso Alvisi said:
Dragon is one of the few sensors which if exposed at 800 or more can gives you a wonderful texture instead of just awful noise and "grittiness" which renders it quite organic.

I know a bunch of people always use it at 1280 or even 2000 outdoors to not only have more highlight headroom but also to have that underlying texture.

With Gemini is different, you can't just shoot higher iso and get the same texture, it simply doesn't have the same character and feel.

Also, I didn't say good or bad, I just said Dragon has a more organic image out of the gate and closer to film than Gemini, which, again, it's closer to "video".

Cleanliness (Gemini) and too much resolution (Helium) can give the impression of something "different" than film...

Again, I let you to decide if it's good or bad depending on the kind of jobs you do, but it's pretty much a shared opinion...

Basically 80% if not more of all the high end commercial and narrrative stuff is shot with diffusion/softening filters and grain added in post for this same reason, to get closer to what film represented.

I'm not here to defend this approach, hell there is who push for HFR and 8K/12K cinema...so this is not a debate on that...

BTW I suspect this is also why you see more Geminis and Heliums for sale VS Dragon-X or DSMC2 Dragons in general...
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I don't always agree with you, but I usually do. ;)

In this case I have so little experience with the Gemini I can't say, but I do like the Dragon noise texture.

What do you think of Alexa texture? Or Arriraw vs ProRes XQ?
 
Matt W. said:
I don't always agree with you, but I usually do. ;)

In this case I have so little experience with the Gemini I can't say, but I do like the Dragon noise texture.

What do you think of Alexa texture? Or Arriraw vs ProRes XQ?
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Hey Matt! ;-)

I also really love the Dragon texture in 2K/4K ProRes 444XQ, it's scaled very well and even more organic, also it makes producers who want/need ProRes happy he he

BTW Alexa texture is really nice too and of course has the low res "advantage" he he but I find the texture of the dragon sensor really hard to beat honestly
 
Tommaso Alvisi said:
Hey Matt! ;-)

I also really love the Dragon texture in 2K/4K ProRes 444XQ, it's scaled very well and even more organic, also it makes producers who want/need ProRes happy he he

BTW Alexa texture is really nice too and of course has the low res "advantage" he he but I find the texture of the dragon sensor really hard to beat honestly
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Thanks. I assume you leave D.E.B. off to keep the grain?
 
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