Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Full-frontal insidious attack on Red, by indie director Rian Johnson (2008)

Status
Not open for further replies.
What a poorly researched article....

"All of the other high-end digital cameras (including the F23, Genesis and D21), which Red claims to outperform in resolution, have at least 1920 photosites for red, 1920 for green and 1920 for blue. " Of course, the Arri (like the RED and Dalsa, and all high end digital SLRs) use a Bayer pattern.

"High end HD cameras shooting 1920 actually have more photosites" which is basically claiming 3 * 1920 * 1080 (= 6,220,800) > 4096x2304 (= 9,437,184) which even those lacking a degree in mathematics can see is plainly false.

Next is the statement that (like Sony's F23, Panavision's Genesis or Arri's D21) can shoot completely uncompressed. Well, I think you can with the Arri, but neither the F23 or Genesis will allow you to record the value of each photosite in the same precision as it is sampled in at the AtoD. Both of them reduce to 10bit, which is compression, and allow you to record that. The Genesis bins on chip, so you can never actually record what the individual photosites record.

"Not only is RED's data rate of approximately one megabyte per frame too small for a full quality 4K image..." RC28 is around 1.16MB/frame and RC36 around 1.5MB a frame.

Rian obviously just doesn't get how compression works. Compression is not about throwing away bits of the image and guessing them back, it's about removing redundancy, which is the bits that are not needed to fully recreate the original image, and also about carefully loosing the bits which will not be noticible when recreated. This can, and is done so that the end result is visually lossless to the original. This cannot be judged on numbers alone, but must be eyeballed.

"When techies press the RED camera folks to answer for their misleading specs". Well, of course, from day one I've explained to countless people both in person and on forums that we use a Bayer pattern colour filter array sensor, like a DSLR, and how that works to generate the image you see. That's not misleading, but educating. We've explained how REDCODE works. I notice Rian doesn't talk about RAW, which is not surprising given that the "high end HD" cameras he talks about don't do RAW. (The Arri does, but for some reason he forgets that it's also a Bayer pattern sensor....)

"To evaluate SHARPNESS of large cinema-quality images, it does not do to look closely or magnify them on a small screen " well, personally speaking as someone who has critically looked at more images than most, a 24" or 30" LCD display is actually more critical for judging image sharpness than a high end 2k or 4k projector. The projector viewing environment will hide nuances that you can easily see on a LCD panel.

"or by film projector after the files have been recorded to film" this will hide even more of the nuances and make a comparison harder.

"If you use the former, you need a system that can playback UNCOMPRESSED files to make a fair comparison." The KG box used for NAB playout in 4k is uncompressed.

Did you know a 5 micron sensor photosite is smaller than a grain of film?? " you will see that any compression is effectively invisible and that the sensor noise itself is smaller than the noise of 35mm film grain."

Of course, Rian has not measured the resolution of a RED One. Or else, he'd not be claiming higher resolution from an HD camera. Perhaps he didn't read CML when Guy-Louis Mier measured 1833 lines per picture height, which is 3.258k, confirming my own measurements. Of course, neither the Genesis, F35 or F23 measure more than 1.9k period.

Let's hope his filmmaking is better than his math.

Graeme
 
This is simply an effort to stir up any publicity or attention he can for his movie. Any exposure is good, even bad exposure. :)
 
Until we get the images, its hard to even discuss further for a person who is neither better in Compression / Math.

To proceed to next level, We are doing a comparative test next week on Red One (#2050) and Phantom HD(2K) and will post comparative snaps of the same footage. We are doing film out with both the images for a feature film test.

Phantom 16-bit vs Red 12-bit results coming soon...
 
This Rian guy's rant is grade school level, at best. He's telling us stuff we already know, as if this was new information he discovered.

"A 4K Bayer-pattern CMOS camera is not actually 4K!!"

No shit, Sherlock. Any 7th grader with a DSLR could have told you that.
 
Jeff K. and Mathew V. I liked your comments a lot. Red only works well if there's optimized end-to-end workflows and a holistic view (which is hard, given that it's all new and it's a moving target). Thus, lots of patient education is important (which I why Rian's article annoying--it's mis-education and mis-information).

In just the last 24 hours I've heard of 2 non-optimal Red project workflows planned in Asia based on false assumptions or lack of "best practice" info:
-one where they want to only use 16mm lenses to shoot 2K (fine, but not using a lot of the big Red sensor)
-one who insists on finishing in 4K (fine, if you're doing a US$100m movie, but for just about everyone else a 2K finish in 2008 is OK, esp. since most FX are done in 2K)
[EDITED BY DAN C. TO FIX AN INACCURACY IN THIS POST. I had originally wrote that I'd heard of a workflow involving MXO and Cineform that seem overly complicated. My interpretation of this secondhand info was incorrect. Apologies. I've since spoken with Paul Leeming and Kaku Ito and they have a good and clever workflow, using MXO and Cineform, which fits well with their budget and yields excellent results.]

I really appreciate those who've published detailed step-by-step workflows from real projects, especially useful for us small budget indie producers (the recent one on reduser.net from the guys at Rubber Monkey comes to mind as a good example).

I've found this class on Red by the guys at PlasterCity for the editors at A.C.E. to be especially helpful (and FUD-busting):
http://www.ace-filmeditors.org/newace/audio.html
as have the film folk interested in Red in Hong Kong whom I've recommended it to. The Red Centre podcast is also very excellent:
http://www.fxguide.com/redcentre
 
Filming out at anything past 3K is useless. As you say, 2K should be fine.
 
Well said, Graeme. I'm curious why this Rian guy would waste his time with this issue. Is he not working much? I heard a lot about Brick, which I loved, but this is the next thing that's popped up on my radar about him. I wonder if some of his deals have collapsed? If you're busy making studio films, why would you give a shit if some camera company in Lake Forest CA is making a digital cinema solution? Sounds like this guy doesn't have much to do and a lot of time on his hands. In other words, I don't think J.J. Abrams or Steven Spielberg stay awake at night worrying about trashing Red's reputation. I don't think this guy's opinion is worth the consternation it's dredged up. IMHO. He should make a new film, on film, and leave the camera-making to people who know what the hell they are doing.
 
OMG. Can't anyone have their own opinion about anything? Rian Johnson has explained the reason why he expressed the opinion of many of the DPs he know. I donot think it is illegal to express his opinion on his own website. This sounds like religious war.

EDIT: This was a response to the second post by Jeff Coatney, which is currently removed. In that post Jeff has warned Rian of grave legal consequences for offending a billionnaire.
 
BobSimon said:
OMG. Can't anyone have their own opinion about anything? Rian Johnson has explained the reason why he expressed the opinion of many of the DPs he know. I donot think it is illegal to express his opinion on his own website. This sounds like religious war.
Click to expand...

You can have an opinion, but you can not misrepresent the facts and make them public. These are two different things.

Wikipedia:

In law, defamation (also called calumny, libel, slander, and vilification) is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel

It is not a "Religous War", it is called The Law.
 
Wow, tough crowd. Lots of personal attacks as usual.

He's just reacting aversely to Red's marketing (probably that page that says "up-ressing not spoken here" and that implies that it captures "more than 5 times" the info of other HD cameras - a "vastly superior recording quality"). Some people react extremely aversely to marketing that stretches the truth. Get over it.

A smart Red owner in LA should write him an email saying, "hey man, I think you got it wrong. Come over and shoot with our Red anytime and we'll help you get the most out of the camera." Could lead to good things and a nice rental deal on his next project (he obviously was considering the Red at one point)...

And Brick was a good film. I looked good too, projected at the Arclight, where I saw it.

And don't bother personally attacking me (Ariana, you listening?). You won't get a response because I'll be on a plane to Japan for 2 weeks to direct a modest little short film shot on Red.

Hopefully we'll prove him wrong!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
BobSimon said:
OMG. Can't anyone have their own opinion about anything? Rian Johnson has explained the reason why he expressed the opinion of many of the DPs he know. I donot think it is illegal to express his opinion on his own website. This sounds like religious war.

EDIT: This was a response to the second post by Jeff Coatney, which is currently removed. In that post Jeff has warned Rian of grave legal consequences for offending a billionnaire.
Click to expand...

I took it down because this thread has gone on long enough. And for the record, Bob, Rian Johnson offended me personally. I can only assume the people who toil day and night to give us a great camera would be offended as well. So in answer to your question, yes, people can have their own opinion, but they cannot make false claims designed to limit someone's right to fair commerce. Thank you for posting the jist of my deleted post out-of-context by the way.
 
Just because it's digital, doesn't mean it's magical. You still have to treat you digital-negative very, very carefully. No re-encodings, no extra processing step that is degrading on the image.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Did you know a 5 micron sensor photosite is smaller than a grain of film?? " you will see that any compression is effectively invisible and that the sensor noise itself is smaller than the noise of 35mm film grain."
Graeme
Click to expand...

The 5 micron sensor photosite may be smaller than film grain. But, film is an analog medium. The grains do not stay in the same location from one frame to the next. This random positioning of the grains make the image projected on a screen look higher resolution. Also, film is a chemical process. The color of grains bleed to neighboring grains. This will make the color a continuum on film. Therefore the projected image will have a higher resolution and a natural analog look and feel. Therefore the pictures made with film will be percived more natural and pleasing and of higher resolution than that made by a digital 4K camera. The human eye has a million dpi resolution, which is much higher than that of 4K and therefore the huiman eye can percive the difference between 4K and film.

Graeme Nattress said:
Of course, neither the Genesis, F35 or F23 measure more than 1.9k period.
Graeme
Click to expand...

F35 is not yet available for sale, right?

By reading all the material on the internet, I could not understand why RED is superior to Phantom65 or Dalsa 4K. I thought it was the low price, but may be there is something else. I just cannot figure it out.

Also, I read somewhere that JVC has demonstrated a 4K camera and a 4K projector. Does this mean JVC will a competitor to RED? Unlike Phantom and Dalsa, JVC is a giant low-priced-consumer-camera-maker with a huge promotional budget. If JVC start marketing 4K cameras, 4K could take off like a rocket.
 
Grains don't have colours though, do they? They're either exposed or not. It's the dyes in the print that have the colour, and a film print is not the resolution of a neg for certain. In tests, in actual cinemas, measured optical resolution of the print barely broke into HD territory, if that....

Grain does alter the perception of resolution though, in that adding noise to an image makes it look sharper than it really is, to a point.

Um, the human eye is pretty crap really.... and dpi is meaningless for it. You need to look for angular visual acuity really.

The reality is that projected RED 4K on a 4k projector will show more detail than a typical film print in a typical cinema.

What's different - this forum where you can communicate with the developers of the camera, and decent compression which makes the camera usable in a wide variety of shooting scenarios.

Graeme
 
Bob, if that is You name, You are nitpicking the wrong guy (Graeme). His knowledge and technical understanding of this topic exceeds the combined value of all of us from this thread. He is by the way the "brain" behind Red Code and the image processing from the RED bayer sensor...

Also - 4K already took of like a rocket. RED has sold more digital cinema cameras in their first year then all of the other makers combined and then some...

And one more thing. Freedom of speech is one thing. Taking responsibility for one's actions is another... In a "masala" terms - You are free to say what ever You like - just be prepared to take the responsibility for the consequences of such a action...
 
Peter I only get really pernicketty when an article states it's "about the facts". If it were a general opinion piece and stuck to "I didn't like the images I saw", then that's just fine - opinion, but when I'm told 9million pixels is a lesser number than 6 million pixels, I laugh....

The nuances of how cameras work and how images are formed, with all the optical and electronic and algorithmic elements mean that fully understanding why the image looks as it does is not a small task. I don't think any of us really know all the nuances, especially as the brain and it's perceptions of the visual data from the eye are heavily involved.

Graeme
 
I like this Rian's post. It will get me more work.

Logic:

Too much good footage shot on RED already.
People already know camera looks good.
If they see his stuff and it sucks like he says, they'll say:

Wow.. Camera looks good, but HIS movie looks bad. I need to make sure I hire JAY to work with me so my stuff looks like the GOOD stuff, instead of HIS stuff.

Except for Audio and Post, the time of deciding if RED looks good as a format has passed. That ship has sailed. If you hate the camera, and the images are ugly, then YOU have a problem, not RED.

As for the marketing of RED.. I'm not wild about it either. I'd like RED.com to be toned down a little. Big, overblown statements do not help the cause.

Jay
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top