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Jeff Kilgroe
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Very true... I often wonder how those people are able to buy a camera at all, let alone any piece of technology. :sarcasm:
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Full-frontal insidious attack on Red, by indie director Rian Johnson (2008)
- Thread starter Dan Carew
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Very true... I often wonder how those people are able to buy a camera at all, let alone any piece of technology. :sarcasm:
David Birdy
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Rian,
More than likely you need glasses or you had a splotch on your contacts when you were viewing the content...I suggest you look at the scenes I viewed at the NAB in 2007.. A director by the name of Steven Soderburg, among other very talented people shot RED footage, displayed on a Sony 4K projector.
Simply put, The footage was spectacular.
Rian check those glasses/contacts and also check out the process the RED footage that you viewed, was shot & recorded, processed, then displayed....
More than likely the footage had compression issues along the projector or playback route...Like opening a can of film stock after you shot it!
You also may want to look into this thing called 3D that is only viable with
non-film cameras...Don't stop there.. Look into how many Movies are distributed in 2008, Via satellite or the internet....film will always need to be scanned for distribution and that adds time & money!
Rian, Finally with quotes like yours... You should run for a government position
where truth and reality do not get in the way of your opinions!:bleh:
Dave
More than likely you need glasses or you had a splotch on your contacts when you were viewing the content...I suggest you look at the scenes I viewed at the NAB in 2007.. A director by the name of Steven Soderburg, among other very talented people shot RED footage, displayed on a Sony 4K projector.
Simply put, The footage was spectacular.
Rian check those glasses/contacts and also check out the process the RED footage that you viewed, was shot & recorded, processed, then displayed....
More than likely the footage had compression issues along the projector or playback route...Like opening a can of film stock after you shot it!
You also may want to look into this thing called 3D that is only viable with
non-film cameras...Don't stop there.. Look into how many Movies are distributed in 2008, Via satellite or the internet....film will always need to be scanned for distribution and that adds time & money!
Rian, Finally with quotes like yours... You should run for a government position
where truth and reality do not get in the way of your opinions!:bleh:
Dave
Stephen Williams
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Hi Jay,
If you had been at IBC, I think 'toned down a little' would be a Major Understement of the Red booth!
4 perspex cases one with Red One, Epic, Scarlet & RedRay. Not a lens or accessory in the place, a coffee lounge, a couple of people from Red & a TV screen playing some Red footage.
Stephen
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David Birdy
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Yes thanks Dan!
Cheers
Dave
Cheers
Dave
Sorry man. I didn't mean to offend Graeme. I was just repeating what my photography professor taught: The difference between analogue and digital medium and acuity of human eye etc.
I did not mean takeoff like 4000 camera rocket. I meant takeoff like a million camera rocket. I am assuming that JVC might have low price tag for their 4K camera. JVC is known for mass producing inexpensive cameras.
Graeme Nattress
RED Problem Solver
Bob, no offense. Just correcting a few things. The human eye can see something a small as 1/60th of a degree. Thats because there are about 450 cones per mm in the fovea of the eye, a "dpi" if you want to call it that of about 10,000. Your professor's figure of a million is out by a couple orders of magnitude.
That means that if you're watching RED 4k on an approximately 60ft screen, you'd have to be within 44ft of the screen to be able to fully see all the 4k detail. If you are sitting further away or have less than 20:20, you won't see all the detail.
Because in film, you're dealing with very small things, like grains of film, you're crossing the border to where analogue and digital start to blur. A film grain is either exposed or not - binary. However, the size of the grain, is analogue and the distribution of the grains is random. On a sensor, there is a fixed array of photosites, but each responds analoguely to the light hitting them. This analogue signal is then digitized. Both film and CCD/CMOS both have analogue and digital aspects to them. It's not as simple as saying film is analogue and video is digital.
Graeme
That means that if you're watching RED 4k on an approximately 60ft screen, you'd have to be within 44ft of the screen to be able to fully see all the 4k detail. If you are sitting further away or have less than 20:20, you won't see all the detail.
Because in film, you're dealing with very small things, like grains of film, you're crossing the border to where analogue and digital start to blur. A film grain is either exposed or not - binary. However, the size of the grain, is analogue and the distribution of the grains is random. On a sensor, there is a fixed array of photosites, but each responds analoguely to the light hitting them. This analogue signal is then digitized. Both film and CCD/CMOS both have analogue and digital aspects to them. It's not as simple as saying film is analogue and video is digital.
Graeme
Paul Leeming
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Hi Dan,
I appreciate your support of Red and trying to quell FUD about the imagery it can shoot in the right hands. I happen to agree with you.
However, one must be cautious not to end up doing the same, as you seem to have done above, perhaps through second hand mis-information.
I think two of the three points above may be one of our jobs here in Japan (#1 and #3). Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
Here's the thing - having used Red extensively for the past 8 months now, we are fully aware of what the best practices workflow is, as well as how to correctly expose and colour grade the footage that results. As some examples I give you the following threads:
Karuta - Japonica
4K Japanese Wedding
Shibuya Test Footage (the first stuff we ever shot with Red #378 back in February, build 13 I think)
In the case of your first item, the 2K project, you mention it is sub-optimal as it isn't using the entire sensor. Sure, the full sensor gives a better image. No question. BUT, the film (Japan's first Red feature btw, starting next week) is very low budget and the cost of renting S35 lenses for the 45 days was cost prohibitive for them (they will have our Red 18-50's with them the whole time though). They do, however, have access to some S16 PL lenses for essentially zero cost, so that's one reason they are going with 2K over 4K. Second reason is cost of storage - 2K allows for 1/4 the storage space of 4K and given they are using 2 cams for 45 days that equals a BIG cost saving in the RAID array they are going to use for the project. Essentially it's a budget issue, as is the case with 99% of films in the world. They are choosing the most suitable shooting option for THEIR project after extensive testing with us.
For the third item, I think this is actually the post process for the same movie you're talking about. First, let me reiterate - budget. I'd love nothing more than to post this movie using Scratch or Lustre et al, but again that little yen sign raises its ugly head. Second, the MXO is hands down the BEST and CHEAPEST way of getting RedCine and FCP to display on multiple monitors including the master monitor we have here in the studio, to ensure accurate colour grading. As for convoluted workflow.... not sure what's convoluted about using Cineform's new Red plugin to convert to Cineform RAW before editing in Final Cut Pro using well established workflow methods and tools. Perhaps it's more a lack of knowing our specific workflow that leads to the comment about it being convoluted, or perhaps it is simply lost in translation.... the reality is, for us the Red workflow path couldn't be simpler as of right now. Best of all, it's affordable as an added bonus!
Our goal is to provide our clients with the best solutions, tailored to their budgets and requirements, not to push them into a sub-optimal path. In the case above that's exactly what we have done and will continue to do for other clients in the future.
Again, I think your intentions are noble. But please be careful about saying negative things of your own if you don't have all the facts.
Cheers,
Paul
P Andersson
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even analogue has a digital aspect to it - it either is like digital or it isn't
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Hi Paul,
I didn't mean to criticize your projects. And, in fact, did not know they were your projects. A mutual friend of ours--who I exchange Red tips with--mentioned a few workflows on projects he's familiar with--but he was being discrete and not going into any details. Without being given all the details and from afar, they seemed a sub-optimal use of the Red to me. In fact, I thought #1 was a non-Japan project, by someone who could afford 35mm lenses, but chose 16mm for artistic reasons (which is fine too, but not using the full sensor). And the way it was explained to me, I thought MXO was somehow being used for a transcode--not the case.
In any case, given your explanations and expertise and the fact that you're getting great images it sounds like your workflows are fine and make sense. So apologies. We're in the same boat, on the micro budgets : )
My point was that, due to the scarcity of well-documented workflows, some people end up with sub-optimal workflows, which produce sub-optimal images. For example, Rian, apparently.
Again, no offense meant. Your work looks great. And I much enjoyed your interview on the Red Centre podcast. I'll give you a ring tomorrow.
cheers,
Dan
I didn't mean to criticize your projects. And, in fact, did not know they were your projects. A mutual friend of ours--who I exchange Red tips with--mentioned a few workflows on projects he's familiar with--but he was being discrete and not going into any details. Without being given all the details and from afar, they seemed a sub-optimal use of the Red to me. In fact, I thought #1 was a non-Japan project, by someone who could afford 35mm lenses, but chose 16mm for artistic reasons (which is fine too, but not using the full sensor). And the way it was explained to me, I thought MXO was somehow being used for a transcode--not the case.
In any case, given your explanations and expertise and the fact that you're getting great images it sounds like your workflows are fine and make sense. So apologies. We're in the same boat, on the micro budgets : )
My point was that, due to the scarcity of well-documented workflows, some people end up with sub-optimal workflows, which produce sub-optimal images. For example, Rian, apparently.
Again, no offense meant. Your work looks great. And I much enjoyed your interview on the Red Centre podcast. I'll give you a ring tomorrow.
cheers,
Dan
David Rasberry
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Your eye is a combination of analogue and digital. The neurons involved in the optic nerve either fire in response to a stimulus or they don't. There is no in between state. Digital video mimics how the eye itself works. The real trick is to match how the brain reconstructs images.
Steve Sherrick
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Rian is a talented guy, but I have to wonder about the connection to Sony Pictures that he has. I'm not saying he wrote this because Sony asked him to, but it does raise a flag that Sony is involved with distributing his movies.
Having said that, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Early on I was vocal about the compression as well. But admittedly, I didn't understand it well enough at the very beginning, and now I do. Where I think Rian takes a chance is that he's getting into geek speak which you really have to know your stuff if you're going to go out on a limb and bash a technology. If he has the technical stills to do that, more power to him. But he also risks looking bad if his data is way off.
If his blog was objective and based on his interpretation of what Red is and isn't, I can't fault him for posting it. If there are alterior motives going on due to a connection with a certain distribution company, that would be unfortunate.
Having said that, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Early on I was vocal about the compression as well. But admittedly, I didn't understand it well enough at the very beginning, and now I do. Where I think Rian takes a chance is that he's getting into geek speak which you really have to know your stuff if you're going to go out on a limb and bash a technology. If he has the technical stills to do that, more power to him. But he also risks looking bad if his data is way off.
If his blog was objective and based on his interpretation of what Red is and isn't, I can't fault him for posting it. If there are alterior motives going on due to a connection with a certain distribution company, that would be unfortunate.
Steve Sherrick
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Actually, I take it back. Focus Features was involved and they are owned by NBC Universal. I got my facts wrong there. See, easy to get facts wrong.
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Tom Lowe
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The lead-in article is by a self-admitted Jannard hater, and the "attack" from Rian is nothing but a poorly worded and researched rehashing of stuff any person with a working knowledge of DSLR photography and Bayer-pattern CMOS sensors already knows. Every punk in junior high photo class knows this stuff by now.
People like myself and Haakon have been saying since almost the beginning that Red One is essentially a really great 2K camera with 35mm DOF & glass, non-linear recording, RAW, etc. If the issue is: "Is Red One REALLY 4K that will hold up pixel for pixel...?" then Rian's article - however poorly presented and needlessly antagonistic - makes a valid point. But I thought this was common knowledge by this point??
People like myself and Haakon have been saying since almost the beginning that Red One is essentially a really great 2K camera with 35mm DOF & glass, non-linear recording, RAW, etc. If the issue is: "Is Red One REALLY 4K that will hold up pixel for pixel...?" then Rian's article - however poorly presented and needlessly antagonistic - makes a valid point. But I thought this was common knowledge by this point??
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Jeff Kilgroe
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Oh no, not on CHUD. :meh: Actually, I have a beef with Iain Stasukevich (the author of that CHUD article). He admits he has never laid hands on RED, but he's going on to quote and support bogus info, just because some recognized DP had a bad day with the camera. Maybe he should take RED for a test drive himself instead of reiterating the FUD. But it's the same rhetoric that plays out with most new products. Look at all the whining over P2 media and DVCPROHD storage requirements, no workflow when the HVX200 was released, the sky is falling, I've got a skidmark in my undies, whaaaaa.... Bashing RED is already passe'
Yet it persists and seems all too common. Every time I run across a RED critic, they are always the people who have never actually worked with the camera -- which there are many of those people in my area. And yet, they always drum up some horror story about the camera that I've never heard of. The funniest story I've heard about RED problems came up a couple weeks ago while I was doing a demo for a potential client. One of the people present for the demo was being somewhat vocal about problems with RED. I asked for a specific example and he responded saying that the camera would continuously overheat and crash and that it did it on a specific shoot. What was so funny is that it was actually my camera on that shoot he talked about. He wasn't there, but I was operating and never did the camera crash -- my camera has never overheated and crashed. Ever. Not even in temps over 100. On this particular shoot, it in fact it only got shut down to swap batteries during set-ups. Apparently he heard this from someone who knows an assistant sound tech who worked on the shoot or some BS like that.
This is the kind of disinformation that is out there...
But going back to the original article by Rian, we can only wonder how he reached his conclusions. Given some of the mention of splotches and color issues, I think the weak link was the post chain. Too bad he has to be so vocal about it and try to justify his opinions with bogus tech info, incorrect math and inappropriate comparisons.
In the end, none of this matters. The camera speaks for itself and it holds its own against any top-end digital system while making inroads into 35mm territory. The proof is in the pudding or footage... When the masses watch films like "KNOW1NG" and other shot-on-RED productions and see that RED is a viable production tool, a lot of this negativity will fade. But there will always be those out there who continue to doubt, even if for their own selfish or biased reasons.
Yet it persists and seems all too common. Every time I run across a RED critic, they are always the people who have never actually worked with the camera -- which there are many of those people in my area. And yet, they always drum up some horror story about the camera that I've never heard of. The funniest story I've heard about RED problems came up a couple weeks ago while I was doing a demo for a potential client. One of the people present for the demo was being somewhat vocal about problems with RED. I asked for a specific example and he responded saying that the camera would continuously overheat and crash and that it did it on a specific shoot. What was so funny is that it was actually my camera on that shoot he talked about. He wasn't there, but I was operating and never did the camera crash -- my camera has never overheated and crashed. Ever. Not even in temps over 100. On this particular shoot, it in fact it only got shut down to swap batteries during set-ups. Apparently he heard this from someone who knows an assistant sound tech who worked on the shoot or some BS like that.
This is the kind of disinformation that is out there...
But going back to the original article by Rian, we can only wonder how he reached his conclusions. Given some of the mention of splotches and color issues, I think the weak link was the post chain. Too bad he has to be so vocal about it and try to justify his opinions with bogus tech info, incorrect math and inappropriate comparisons.
In the end, none of this matters. The camera speaks for itself and it holds its own against any top-end digital system while making inroads into 35mm territory. The proof is in the pudding or footage... When the masses watch films like "KNOW1NG" and other shot-on-RED productions and see that RED is a viable production tool, a lot of this negativity will fade. But there will always be those out there who continue to doubt, even if for their own selfish or biased reasons.
Joe G.
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wow
wow
10 pages and mine is the only post to call for reaching out to him to get a look at those raw files he's speaking of.
Too much fan boy knee-jerk crap.
Red should have a department for just this sort of situation (marketing? pr?)
I'll do it. You guys hiring?
If I can get him to retract everything after his footage is cleaned up, is that worth something?
Seems like an obvious call.
wow
10 pages and mine is the only post to call for reaching out to him to get a look at those raw files he's speaking of.
Too much fan boy knee-jerk crap.
Red should have a department for just this sort of situation (marketing? pr?)
I'll do it. You guys hiring?
If I can get him to retract everything after his footage is cleaned up, is that worth something?
Seems like an obvious call.
Shawn Booth
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First post asked for 4K tiffs......
Johann Schulz
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Ten pages of posts filed due to a contentious, ignorant filmmaker making statements based upon who knows what or why? An opinion? Sure. But there are so many ways to see great RED footage now, the tide is a turning to the only matter: RESULTS!
And I'd have to say that the posts here are some of the least-biased postings I've come across in a long time. People aren't bashing so much as holding their disbelief in check. We're talking about people here who shoot regularly with great results with the very hardware and software Rian says is possibly inferior to even 1080i, if you take him to some conclusion.
It almost doesn't make any sense how his results could be so off the mark; but I want to hear more from his side now, and see what his frames are showing. Otherwise, we're beginning to piss into the wind....
BTW, "Reaching out" seems a bit pathetic, doesn't it? At least meet him in the middle of the playground, and give him a good thrashing! ;>)
And I'd have to say that the posts here are some of the least-biased postings I've come across in a long time. People aren't bashing so much as holding their disbelief in check. We're talking about people here who shoot regularly with great results with the very hardware and software Rian says is possibly inferior to even 1080i, if you take him to some conclusion.
It almost doesn't make any sense how his results could be so off the mark; but I want to hear more from his side now, and see what his frames are showing. Otherwise, we're beginning to piss into the wind....
BTW, "Reaching out" seems a bit pathetic, doesn't it? At least meet him in the middle of the playground, and give him a good thrashing! ;>)
Jeff Coatney
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Iain Stasukevich has an open invitation from me to test drive our Red anytime he wants to. He shot a short film of mine a few years back. He shoots digital quite a bit, as I recall.
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