Forgotten?

[David Rasberry]

JVC's 4k is a joke. Records 4 separate 1080p files to separate SDHC cards that have to be stitched together in post to get the whole image. From IBC comments it looks like sub 1k consumer video cam footage as far as DR is concerned and sensitivity is poor by today's standards. No competition for a high sensitivity HDR camera like Scarlet should be.

Any camera is ultimately a series of compromises. I like Red's thinking. For 2/3" 3k should be a sweet spot for good sensitivity, DR, and resolution. Beyond that you really would not gain much in optical resolution as there aren't many lenses that can resolve well enough with good contrast for 4k on that small a sensor.

Keeping the same pixel density and doing 4k/ QHD resolution on a true S16mm film sized sensor for the interchangeable Scarlet is what I'd like to see. Leave the fixed at 3k 2/3".

 

[Bruce Allen]

I have some thoughts... one good, two worries, two good. Kinda like a sandwich of sorts.

GOOD:
I kinda like the idea of there being like 1,000 Scarlets sitting in RED's lair, plus a good production line set up and churning them out... and then RED suddenly announces that Scarlet is shipping... then we buy them. And we all get 'em at the same time.

It seems kinda democratic. To go with the Scarlet theme. I suspect that this was the original plan and that if the earthquake hadn't happened in Japan, we'd all be able to buy Scarlets by now. I still think this is going to happen reasonably soon.

WORRIES:
I am a bit worried that Scarlet's sensor represents relatively old technology. Is it the same sensor that was originally planned to ship in like 2009 or so? I am worried that from a color, noise and latitude perspective, Scarlet will be in danger of making worse images than the 2012 Sony, Canon and Panasonic cameras in the same price range if you give them an external 1080p recorder. I really wish RED had listened to Matt Uhry years ago and made Scarlet a 4/3rds camera.

Also, I am really counting on all of the fancy features to be upgraded and working in order to actually make my Scarlet stereo rig work. If I can't get a RedMote Pro that can control focus for two Scarlets at the same time, then the point of having fly-by-wire lenses is lost for me. Hope this stuff is available!

GOOD:
If my worst fears come true and Scarlet's sensor is not super-fantastic, I predict that Jim will have some kind of Dragon upgrade coming... Heck, even if Scarlet's sensor is awesome, they might have a Dragon update for that too - and I definitely want to be first in line for that!

Everything else about Scarlet looks great to me. Genlock, yay. Lens data recorded per frame, yay. Frame rate, yay. 3K, yay. Yay yay yay!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Bruce Allen]

JVC's 4k is a joke. Records 4 separate 1080p files to separate SDHC cards that have to be stitched together in post to get the whole image. From IBC comments it looks like sub 1k consumer video cam footage as far as DR is concerned and sensitivity is poor by today's standards. No competition for a high sensitivity HDR camera like Scarlet should be.

I have seen JVC's 4K 60p footage on a 4K monitor. Actually, the problem is more CA in the plastic lens than the 4K sensor. The footage looks pretty damn good actually.

In fact, I suspect that if you watch the footage and then look at their tiny little 4K camcorder (that looks like it weighs half that of Scarlet), your reaction will be "I WANT TWO OF THOSE RECORDING IN STEREO ON AN OCTACOPTER RIGHT NOW!"

Not to say I would shoot anything serious on it. Or that I don't want a Scarlet. But it's actually quite neat.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Nathaniel Haban]

Silence can be interpreted many ways. Anticipation builds. Do not lose hope. RED is for you. RED is for the future. The future dawns, and the prevailing color on the horizon is a deep, deep RED.

Scarlet is on Jim's "Roadmap", right after EPIC-X has shipped.

Forgotten? No.

It is the next step. Have you forgotten the next rung on a ladder, if you haven't reached it yet? Of course not, you anticipate it. I'm sure the launch of Scarlet is as anticipated by the RED team as by all of us.

 

[Solomon Nero]

JVC's 4k is a joke. Records 4 separate 1080p files to separate SDHC cards that have to be stitched together in post to get the whole image. From IBC comments it looks like sub 1k consumer video cam footage as far as DR is concerned and sensitivity is poor by today's standards. No competition for a high sensitivity HDR camera like Scarlet should be.

Any camera is ultimately a series of compromises. I like Red's thinking. For 2/3" 3k should be a sweet spot for good sensitivity, DR, and resolution. Beyond that you really would not gain much in optical resolution as there aren't many lenses that can resolve well enough with good contrast for 4k on that small a sensor.

Keeping the same pixel density and doing 4k/ QHD resolution on a true S16mm film sized sensor for the interchangeable Scarlet is what I'd like to see. Leave the fixed at 3k 2/3".

I agree...a joke...more of a "video" not cinema cam...but you know...Agencies will see that and say "Hey lets use that camera, ites cheaper then epic, and 4k! DUUHH bllaahhh" lol...My apologies if anyone works for an agency, im just messin.

 

[Ash Worth]

If my worst fears come true and Scarlet's sensor is not super-fantastic, I predict that Jim will have some kind of Dragon upgrade coming... Heck, even if Scarlet's sensor is awesome, they might have a Dragon update for that too - and I definitely want to be first in line for that!

For the updated price of the Scarlet I don't think it would be economical for a sensor upgrade given the amount of cameras they 'expect' to sell.

But I believe the Scarlet line will be rethinked.

It won't be fixed, the reason being they have invested resources in a mount that has full funtionality.

It won't be 2/3rd sensor. Yes this would be a decent camera but it's not where the numbers are. A huge potential market is the DSLR owners who want to upgrade. They simply won't buy a fixed camera with a smaller sensor. They have invested in lenses.

When the Scarlet was announced there was no AF100, FS100, F3 and in November the Canon 4k 35S. This is the market they are now competing in. When Canon says it will release a camera it will release a camera.

I should be clear the fixed 2/3 camera would be a decent camera but it won't dominate that part of the market. I don't believe RED would put that many resources into camera that does not have the potential to move many many units. No camera company today will dominate with a 2/3 sensor camera.

The first company that releases a small camera with lens mount, 35 sensor, pro audio inputs and a decent recording format will dominate the market. It doesn't even have to be RAW and it doesn't have to be 5k. Seriously 90% of projects do not need to be 5k. If you need this and fast frame rates then the Epic X is for you and at 28k a steal in that market.

 

[Tim Nitsch]

Just give me 120fps and REDCODE and don't go above $10k for a working package... And I will buy it because I know at the very least the Scarlet will at least have a 2/3 sensor and 3k res.


Edit: Actually now that I read that back, that's a pretty insane request :biggrin:

Edit Again: Never mine perfectly acceptable. Because it was RED that gave us those specs in the first place (minus the price of course) :001_tongue:

 

[Eric Rodemann]

When the Scarlet was announced there was no AF100, FS100, F3 and in November the Canon 4k 35S. This is the market they are now competing in. When Canon says it will release a camera it will release a camera.

There is a rumor that Canon will announce an S35 4k camera in November, not start shipping such a camera. I think what is actually known is that Canon will make an announcement in November. Some people think the announcement is a 4k camera. They may be right, may be wrong. The rumored price point is 15K.

What's the sweet spot for a prosumer camera? I don't know, but I"m guessing lower than 15K?

 

[L. Langer]

-5K is the ideal price range for Prosumer camera. Canon will have 4K consumer camcorders in the 1-2.5K price range when the time is right but those are not coming anytime soon because there is no market for them without 4K HDTVs and obviously there is a lot left to sort out on the consumer side of things as far as software and formats are concerned.

 

[Eric Rodemann]

-5K is the ideal price range for Prosumer camera. Canon will have 4K consumer camcorders in the 1-2.5K price range when the time is right but those are not coming anytime soon because there is no market for them without 4K HDTVs and obviously there is a lot left to sort out on the consumer side of things as far as software and formats are concerned.

I agree with you on the price point. 5K is a sweet spot. Expensive, but not prohibitive for a serious enthusiast. There's a reason both the Panny Af100 and the Sony Nex FS100 are both around 5K.

I disagree about the market.

Two things. One, 4K is great for post production. You can steady a shaky cam in post without losing resolution, which requires trimming the edges of the frame. You can zoom in during post without losing quality. You can do special effects in post without image degradation. LOT'S of people have After Effects these days and can master basic fx.

Two, it's cool to shoot something that COULD hold up on the big screen. 99% of indie prosumer productions won't make it (random figure could be more or less), but I think it's exciting for people to have that capability.

Probably you won't even make it to a crappy film festival in bumfvckville, but what IF you made it into Cannes? It would be nice to have a 4k product, even downconverted to 2k.

So yea, if you're making something for youtube, who needs 4k? And a lot of stuff will end up on youtube with 50 views. But many prosumers are HOPING for more, and would be willing to pay 5k for that capability, even if it doesn't get used most of the time.

The pros can just get an Epic X.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Forgotten? It's just a camera guys. The Scarlet fixed is going to ship after EPIC- If I were a betting man, I' d say by NAB,

Now the other Scarlets and Epic S... those are gone. Something new is on the burner and when Jim says "trust me, we know what you want"

well I am saying TRUST HIM... its going to better, faster and most likely LESS EXPENSIVE than you imagined. The forgotten is a LESSON

they learned that pre-releasing not only telegraphed to Sony and JVC, etc but also disappointed people waiting... so they have to keep quiet...

FACT: All RED has done in 5 years is BEAT EXPECTATIONS
on specs and pricing... EVERY SINGLE TIME>

They threw in an SSD module and Titanium PL mount for the delays on X for heaven sake... RED does not forget anyone... so take a chill pill and
spend the time waiting rewriting your project. A rewrite will help your project more than any camera on earth

 

[Eric Rodemann]

They threw in an SSD module and Titanium PL mount for the delays on X for heaven sake... RED does not forget anyone... so take a chill pill and
spend the time waiting rewriting your project. A rewrite will help your project more than any camera on earth

Rewrite? Pffffft! The Scarlet rewrites projects for you. It's a module you add on. It's just not in the Red store yet.

 

[Imran Farouk]

I'm very confused...
Why are some of the scarlet people all up in arms?

I know people think RED is a super company but lets be real, they have only so many hands...
EPIC then Scarlet. It seems fair and it makes sense, when scarlet starts rolling it'll be one hell of an awesome storm...

 

[M Most]

JVC's 4k is a joke. Records 4 separate 1080p files to separate SDHC cards that have to be stitched together in post to get the whole image.

So what? How do you think Sony's 4K projector works? Slicing an image into separate quadrants for practical processing rates and more economical manufacturing is something that's been done for quite some time, both in physical units and processing devices. Baselight 4 and Baselight 8 essentially work by slicing the image into 4 or 8 pieces, spearately processing them, then stitching them back together again. This is an approach that works very well, and it is what allowed Baselight 8 to do 4K in real time earlier than just about everyone else, including Quantel. One size does not fit all. Just because Red has chosen to use a single sensor that was developed for the larger image doesn't mean it's the only way to do it, and it doesn't mean that other approaches aren't valid. Pixels are pixels, and it really doesn't matter if it's 4000x2000 pixels on one piece of silicon, or 1000x500 pixels on four pieces of silicon. If they're physically aligned correctly and part of one unified imaging plane, there's no difference - other than the fact that JVC can create a 4K camera without having to actually fabricate working, perfect 4K sensors.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

What I want is the equivalent of the form factor of a Canon 5D body but will all the Canon parts stripped out and Red innards packed into it. 4K Red RAW @ 24fps. Audio. Built-In LCD. Literally just a DSLR Body made by Red. Window the sensor if you want 2/3" DOF. $2.5K?

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Pixels are pixels, and it really doesn't matter if it's 4000x2000 pixels on one piece of silicon, or 1000x500 pixels on four pieces of silicon. If they're physically aligned correctly and part of one unified imaging plane, there's no difference - other than the fact that JVC can create a 4K camera without having to actually fabricate working, perfect 4K sensors.

The image, I believe, is captured on one sensor. It's recorded to four cards.

 

[David Rasberry]

The image, I believe, is captured on one sensor. It's recorded to four cards.

Yes, according to the JVC spokesperson to allow for the use of normal off the shelf media without bandwidth issues. Splitting the image is not so much the issue as media reliability for acquisition. Lose one SD card and your shot is ruined. Aren't they already using this same chip and technology for their 3d camcorder? Records two image streams instead of four?

IQ, sensitivity and DR are more of interest to me than the split screen issue.

Of course it is just a technology demo prototype at this point. No indication of when or if they will even release it. The IBC interviewee was very careful not to commit.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

All these Canon and JVC announcements et all are WHY the Scarlet/S specs are changing -

for the last time... if Jim says he has our back... i'd believe him. His track record warrants it.

The ONLY thing holding back Scarlet FIXED was a lens part supply issue (nearly resolved) and its still in the STORE. The FIXED is not changing.

Whatever is replacing the other Scarlets or S will blow you all away. mark my words

 

[George Butterfield]

What will a used RED ONE sell for in one year and how do its specs compare to Scarlet?

 

[Tim Nitsch]

All these Canon and JVC announcements et all are WHY the Scarlet/S specs are changing -

for the last time... if Jim says he has our back... i'd believe him. His track record warrants it.

The ONLY thing holding back Scarlet FIXED was a lens part supply issue (nearly resolved) and its still in the STORE. The FIXED is not changing.

Whatever is replacing the other Scarlets or S will blow you all away. mark my words

First of all, Great name!

Secondly I sure hope your right about the Scarlet Fixed not changing. That would only drive the cost up even more. And to me, thats bad news.