For those who have used them: How does Red compare to the Genesis and CineAlta?

[DavidBeier]

I remember hearing nothing but good things about RED in the early days and, when those first tests came out, I was totally blown away. I lost touch with the whole digital scene for about a year and a half (life got in the way) but am back now and in the process of making a short film.

I had been under the impression that the RED was a monster that would get at least 11 stops of latitude and, thanks to the 4k, be able to compete with bad boys like the Genesis and CineAlta.

Recently a met a guy about the shoot a short film with the RED and who had a DP who had worked with it many times as well as the other big ones. He said that his DP had told him that the camera was largely hype. That it couldn't compare to the others and that he was pulling about 7 or 8 stops of lattitude! Hell, the HVX200 pulls 8 stops easy (noise not withstanding).

Anyway, I'm curious to get some more professional opinions here as I wanna get back in touch with what the best tool for the best job is. Thanks.

 

[Warren Kommers]

Long story short:

This camera rulez! Get one.

I'd pick it 95% of the time over F23, Viper, and Genesis.

F23 has more latitude but not nearly enough to out weigh the advantages of RED. Plenty of DR and even more DR coming in RED. Just have to know how to expose it well. 35mm DOF and 4k res is more important than it's slightly limited DR.

 

[Mike Prevette]

David, you answered your own question with your last sentence. There is no perfect camera for every job, and you should always use the right one for whatever job your doing

 

[Warwick Brown]

really! if you need to be considering 11 stops of latitude as essential maybe you should consider a career in post production,there is only one exposure i think, the right one.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

really! if you need to be considering 11 stops of latitude as essential maybe you should consider a career in post production,there is only one exposure i think, the right one.

Actually in low light conditions were you want details in the midtones this will come in handy. This is something RED is very weak with at this moment, maybe build 16 will take care of it, maybe not :waaa:




Fredrik Callinggard

 

[Jason Sinclair]

And if you take what Wazza says then you quickly realize you don't want to be working with that DOP You want the "right one" on many different levels; DOP, exposure and camera. Then it can be said, the red package is the one. Find a DOP who is also a stills photographer and then you will be golden.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

All defending of the camera aside:

I have been working with it for a while now. It's a tricky little beast at this time. It does have some nice range, and the 35mm sized imager is a major advantage.

There is a buttload of noise if you shoot in the wrong places, there are some IR issues which can be fixed with filters. Post support is spotty at best, and slow due to a number of factors.

So why do people love it?

IF you feed the camera what it wants, you can get some amazing images out of it. They will compete with some of the best stuff out there.

Would I recommend a RED. I would.. To the right person. RED is not for everyone, and it requires some study and patience to get it right.

What a lot of people miss is that this camera is young... Very young, and still suffering from growing pains.

It is my belief that 1 year from now, RED will make good on every claim it started with. Jim and the boys read these posts, they are VERY well aware of where the camera is falling short. They also know that they must fix them in order to survive in this business. So it's not just a matter of what the camera is, it's also a matter of what the camera will be.

Given how close build 16 is, and given what the RED boys say it will be.. I would suggest you hold off a bit, and see what the new build brings to the table.. It may very well be a game changer.

 

[Obin Olson]

Spot on Jay!

 

[Jim McKinney]

And if you take what Wazza says then you quickly realize you don't want to be working with that DOP You want the "right one" on many different levels; DOP, exposure and camera. Then it can be said, the red package is the one. Find a DOP who is also a stills photographer and then you will be golden.

Try shooting with the Red on this short film. See if it is right for you and buy it if it is. The Red offers 35mm photography without any film stock or processing costs. And generally, color correction costs are drastically reduced, potentially to zero. This is a HUGE advantage for the short film maker with limited or no prospects for commercial recoupment of costs.

Finding the right d.p. for the project is important, too. They don't have to be an established stills photographer either. Any good d.p. should be good on the Red as well.

 

[ChristopherKenworthy]

Does the Red really only have 8 stops of latitude? We've been shooting in the harsh Australian sun and the dark Australian night, which always makes you feel like you need more latitude. But do we really only have 8 stops? Tell me its a myth.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Does the Red really only have 8 stops of latitude? We've been shooting in the harsh Australian sun and the dark Australian night, which always makes you feel like you need more latitude. But do we really only have 8 stops? Tell me its a myth.

The tests I've done and many others, shows about 7-9 stops depending on conditions.

That doesn't mean it's a bad camera - you just have to take that into the equation when shooting


Sorry


Fredrik Callinggard

 

[ChristopherKenworthy]

The tests I've done and many others, shows about 7-9 stops depending on conditions.

Sorry


Fredrik Callinggard

Thanks for that. Well, I guess that's why we had to work so hard to get it to look good. I do love the camera and the results we're getting, but on set I kept feeling that the DR just wasn't there. Now I know why.

 

[Jim McKinney]

Long story short:

I'd pick it 95% of the time over F23, Viper, and Genesis.

It all depends. And the Genesis is Super35mm photography. In many ways it is better than Red. But you can't buy one, and if and when you can, it will be very expensive. Dollar for dollar, nothing comes close to Red. It's like owning a Ferrari, but paying for a Kia.

Oh yeah, and Red is constantly improving.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

So why do people love it?

That was an excellent summation of what it is like to work with this camera at present.

I would add, in addition to everything Jay said, that I love the price comparisons to the other cameras mentioned. And the total image flexibility of shooting RAW is a dream come true. This will only get better.

But every camera has its advantages.

 

[Warren Kommers]

It all depends. And the Genesis is Super35mm photography. In many ways it is better than Red. But you can't buy one, and if and when you can, it will be very expensive. Dollar for dollar, nothing comes close to Red. It's like owning a Ferrari, but paying for a Kia.

Oh yeah, and Red is constantly improving.

To me as a director less DOF is control and storytelling.

ex: I only want you to look at this glass rather than read that poster back on that wall. If I want you to read the poster then I'll rack to it.

as far as resolution goes I feel that the more there is the more 3 dimensional our fictitious world is from a 2D image. That is at least what we are trying to sell most of the time isn't it? Grain and noise identify the screen surface. Not to say there isn't potential to get noise in RED.

Like you say it depends on the project. Always. If it calls for mini-dv handheld than let's do it.

 

[Mark Andersen]

I am a stills photographer, and the Red is a dream coming from the Canon digital stills world. I am pretty happy with the DR, but you do have to expose right. DR is more important if you shoot sloppy. One thing to consider is what highlights look like on Red, they have this nice creamy transition to white. In HD video you often see more of a clip or harshness to the whites. i do have to agree that I would like to see less noise in the 3/4 tones.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I am a stills photographer, and the Red is a dream coming from the Canon digital stills world. I am pretty happy with the DR, but you do have to expose right. DR is more important if you shoot sloppy. One thing to consider is what highlights look like on Red, they have this nice creamy transition to white. In HD video you often see more of a clip or harshness to the whites. i do have to agree that I would like to see less noise in the 3/4 tones.

Not entirely true. Yes if you shoot sloppy it will look bad, but that goes for everything.

Example: If I had a night shoot were I need to trust available lights as much as possible (can be for budget, time or esthetic reasons, doesn't matter). I would sincerely consider the new vision III stock from Kodak and shoot on film, simply because it would be delivering more details were RED would go noisy in an instant.

Now if I can live with the fact that RED is closer to reversal and therefor crunch the shadows quickly and that would be a look I would like. Or if I would have time and the back up with actually lighting for those necessary details, well then I would most probably go RED - simply because it'll give me other possibilities, such as for example second camera etc.

As already said everything has it's reasons and just because this DP is saying that he feels RED might not be up for the challenge doesn't mean his a bad DP. It might be that what they're considering doing has other cams that's better suited for it????


Fredrik

 

[Barry Green]

Jay, excellent post -- I agree 100%.

 

[Jason Sinclair]

Thanks for that. Well, I guess that's why we had to work so hard to get it to look good. I do love the camera and the results we're getting, but on set I kept feeling that the DR just wasn't there. Now I know why.

It's there, you just got to know where to look. It's not always in the obvious places and it's not a case of what you see it what you get. But it's there. Like i said already, a good stills photographer who has worked in raw for the last few years will help.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

The tests I've done and many others, shows about 7-9 stops depending on conditions.

I wish Red would directly address this. Finner also doggedly insists it's about 8/9 stops, yet Red has repeatedly stated 11.