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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

For those who have used them: How does Red compare to the Genesis and CineAlta?

DavidBeier said:
Has it at least made the Varicam obsolete?
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Yes, sold mine over 6 months ago. And I really loved that camera, which I sold my 3 Arri's to buy. 5 years of HD footage that is now going to be too low rez, yet until RED came along it was great. I just hope 4K is good enough for a while. Just wish I would get my tracking numbers soon....

.
 
Varicam and the like are still very much alive and kicking. It's got a tried and tested workflow, the camera is utterly reliable and trusted, and they are very available. The 720 rez is a bit off-putting though, and I certainly wouldn't buy one. But for the time being at least it's the camera of choice for high end wildlife work - Planet Earth for example, as well as all current high end projects.
Steve
 
Is it just me or did his question start with "For those who have used them...". I got excited for a moment "Maybe we'll actually have a directed dialogue". Nope. Hijacked once again. My eternal optimism regarding a thread that doesn't have David Mullen/Greame Nattris and the like and still be informative is waning.

Nick.
 
I've used the Genesis and the RED.
The Genesis is a TANK and you have lug around the car battery and its umbilical cord. The lightest I could get it for some handheld shots was about 40lbs, still tethered to the battery and the remote record deck. We got a sweet deal and still spent over $3,000 a day on camera rental alone. The money we spent on camera rental for a week would have just about paid for my RED. When we shot, the digital mags were not available yet so we had to go to HDCAMSR. I hate digitizing tape.

The results were beautiful, and the 4:4:4 panalog stuff had plenty of range to pull from.

My RED is no lightweight handycam, but at least I can hold the whole unit on my shoulder and not have to be tethered to a boat anchor. And its MINE : )
 
ive heard people say doing a filmout from RED is problematic as compared to the F23. Having never done it i'm possibly being presented with that workflow soon on a feature. am i shooting myself in the foot to recommend to the production to ditch the F23 and go with my RED package?
 
Kodak builds CCDs by the way.
Also, I think you could see a bit of, lack of latitude? on sodhelbergs films shot on red. On the NAB projections I felt that whatever was shot with artificial lighting looked awesome but available light was a little awkward. Specially where the trees met the sky. In general I think its a great camera, I was really impressed, much more than I expected!!! Although I havent received mine yet, I guess one can fix all that with filters as well, there are probably more limitations on your mind than on the camera itself, its just a matter of creativity.
 
I haven't used Genesis, but I've been in a room with one that was being used, and I've seen lots of the results. I don't really like the look. It is kind of plastic. And the truth we're finding about Red, is that post makes all the difference. There are ways of dragging more latitude out of that footage. We're getting a lot of joy from outputting two or more versions of the footage from RedCine, and then combining them in AE. Takes some skill, but you certainly feel like you get 11 stops when you do that.
 
redsail said:
Let's see.....I have worked with the Panavision Cameras, the Sony 900/950, the Viper, the Dalsa, and the Red.
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I'm glad you posted this. If you worked with the DALSA camera system before last year, that camera doesn't exist anymore.

When you used a DALSA camera it was probably with the original "Origin", not the current Origin II. All Origin cameras received a major upgraded in 2007. The Origin used the older "Palomar" sensor, not the new "Rocketeer" sensor. The Rocketeer has been installed in every DALSA digital cinema camera. The new sensor wasn't a subtle improvement. I believe I've seen all makes and models of digital cinema cameras out now, and I've never seen another digital cinema camera with more dynamic range or apparent resolution.

I.

Illya Friedman
DALSA
Digital Cinema Division
www.dalsa.com/dc
 
ChristopherKenworthy said:
There are ways of dragging more latitude out of that footage. We're getting a lot of joy from outputting two or more versions of the footage from RedCine, and then combining them in AE. Takes some skill, but you certainly feel like you get 11 stops when you do that.
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Thats the old grading trick! It would definitely be cool for AE to have redcine controls on the footage where you can adjust layers from raw..

Or does Scratch do this?
 
I DPed a feature with the CineAlta and never could get past feeling like it was a big news camera. IMHO, unless you have Digiprimes, a good 1st AC and a DI pass; its tough to get it to look like anything but oversharpened video.

The Genesis is capable of subtle image characteristics and handles the shoulder quite nicely for an electronic capture device. Operational issues with size, weight, tethers, etc are all rather annoying. Pricey.

Ultimately if cost is not an issue I would go with 35mm film before any electronic camera. If cost is an issue then the RedOne is by far the most bang for the buck and easier to handle in the field than any of the other D-cinema cameras I have used. To be fair I have not shot with the SI-2K yet or the D-21.
 
redsail said:
Let's see.....I have worked with the Panavision Cameras, the Sony 900/950, the Viper, the Dalsa, and the Red. The first difference is the size factor. Shots can be achieved in a simpler way. It requires less manpower, less support gear, and fits in areas that would be impossible for any other camera. Shooting with Red is very similar to shooting film using a lightweight Movicam or Arriflex. The image quality is superior with Red. The quality of the blacks with Red is ten times better than Sony. The Red also handles the bright sky or hot practical lamps better than the Panavision, D21, Viper, and Dalsa. The Dalsa being a close second for overexposures. With Red you get a simple, lightweight system, with a superior image from the highlights to the shadow area.
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Great points, and as was mentioned earlier the image is still being tweeked. I can't wait to see what the Red ultimately becomes. The secret I think is in RAW capture, however, I would not be surprised to see a few copy cats in the future, possibly some very good ones at that. I am sure more than one major manufacturer has dissected the Red already.
 
Joofa said:
I think Kodak makes more money off print film and not film negative. So digital cameras may not put a big bump in Kodak's business. It is the digital projection that might.
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True but so much production that is going to digital from film is never going to see prints, like commercials and music videos. film production is following the same path that stills did a few years ago. Almost no stills shooters are using film these days. Hey, film and chemicals aren't that great on the environment so I guess it's a good thing.
 
Steve Phillipps said:
Varicam and the like are still very much alive and kicking. It's got a tried and tested workflow, the camera is utterly reliable and trusted, and they are very available. The 720 rez is a bit off-putting though, and I certainly wouldn't buy one. But for the time being at least it's the camera of choice for high end wildlife work - Planet Earth for example, as well as all current high end projects.
Steve
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I'm headed off for three weeks of wildlife shooting with my Red and Canon 150-600. It's a current high end project. (OK, maybe middle end) Some day Planet Earth will catch up.
 
Panasonic HVX-200 VS Red?

Panasonic HVX-200 VS Red?

No comparison!

Tell you what... I would gladly trade your Red One for three (3) sets of my HVX-200.
 
Shawn Nelson said:
I wish Red would directly address this. Finner also doggedly insists it's about 8/9 stops, yet Red has repeatedly stated 11.
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About 8-8.5 stops at 250 ASA and you will be safe.

darkkelt said:
how many stops is the genesis capable of ? I've heard some people say 14,
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About 10.5-11 at 250 ASA
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
The Genesis is capable of subtle image characteristics and handles the shoulder quite nicely for an electronic capture device. Operational issues with size, weight, tethers, etc are all rather annoying. Pricey.
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With the solid state disk and the battery mount you can operate Genesis tether free or at least thats what the funky Panavision video implied.
 
Hungarian Comparisons

Hungarian Comparisons

Some DOPs in Hungary not associated to any camera company shot tests on Kodak film, Red, Genesis, D-20, F23 & F900R cameras in controlled conditions going from a room where the lights were progressively turned off to a panning shot to a girl sitting at a table lit from the left by a window & daylight.
The post was done by a very respected post house with one of the worlds best software experts for post.
Film looked the best, followed by Genesis, followed by the Arri D-20 etc. The Red camera which I was unable to find out which version of software it was supporting showed the least exposure latitude and had crushed blacks. The color chart at the beginning of the take was exposed well and the Red blacks were black unlike the F-23. I was disappointed that for a 4K camera it did not jump out as being superior to cameras that are 2K regardless of the price considering the bashing of other brands going on here.
You can be dismissive of these test but given its independence from manufacturers Red has a road to travel before the 4K claims can be justified.
So for those making rash claims without direct comparisons I would say do proper testing using people who dont have a particular axe to grind first.
 
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