Focusing on 720P. I need your help/Advice...

[Maz Mawlawi]

I have an important shoot tomorrow and I am terrified about the focus. We have been doing a lot of testing lately and most of our focus is based on tape measuring because it’s virtually impossible to get critical focus just “by eye” using a 720P LCD or Monitor….now the problem is, once and a while the talent doesn’t hit their mark perfectly or something get slightly moved and while the footage still “appears” to be in focus on the 720P monitors, it actually isn’t…and we don’t find out until we import it in REDCine. I have worked with F900’s and other high end HD cams and while we still used tape measuring we were at least able to also confirm focus with our eyes everytime! ….it’s very hard to do so with the RED and a 720P preview…we still don’t have an EVS so I can’t say if that would solve the problem. I have 2 questions: 1) How are you guys managing this? Any pointers? Any tips?
2) Is there any hope to ever get a 1:1 focus or at least a 1080P output?

 

[Joel Kaye]

once and a while the talent doesn’t hit their mark perfectly or something get slightly moved and while the footage still “appears” to be in focus on the 720P monitors, it actually isn’t

Only once in a while? The only solutions I see to this is going to be either the EVF is so f'n good you can see this stuff OR they are going to have to add a Sony/JVC style focus assist so low rez monitor can actually be used to indicate focus.

It's impracticle to have a 1080P monitor always available to check focus (if they ever implement that) and the 2x zoom or even 1:1 focus assist doesn't help in these situations.

For now, shoot a little deeper dof and be aware of the 1/3 vs. 2/3 DOF range you have to work with.

 

[Axel Mertes]

I agree with #2 here.

Originally I thought the user key 2 was a 1:1 zoom, but now, after having worked with it for a while, I just believe its a 50% zoom instead.

So with some math:

4096x2048y shooting -> full size on 1024x512y pixels (and not including the underscan here, so I am clearly wrong and its even smaller).

~50% zoom -> 50% size w/h = 2048x1200y on 1024x600y pixels. Thats still a scale down of about 50% real pixels.

RED Team, could you allow (e.g. a menu preset) to have a pure 1:1 zoom here (using a good demosaic on the subwindow)?

This way we could better control the focus.


Thanks,
Axel

 

[Joel Kaye]

pure 1:1 zoom

A lot of people have asked for that and I'm pretty sure it's going to be coming in a firmware update. It's critical and that should solve setting camera focus points based on marks. I don't think it helps you if an actor misses their mark during a take unless you leave it on 1:1 while shooting. That would probably be impossible to do because you need framing.

Now if one LCD could be on 1:1 while another output could be on full frame that combo might be pretty good... provided you can place 1:1 whever you want to on the screen because rarely is the subject centered.

I guess that's a where a good focus puller could compensate when they see the mark has been missed or the actors leans in etc.

I still say the EX1 focus system is simpler and better. You can focus in 1080P off a tiny screen and it's bang on every time. RED's clearly missing that ability now.

 

[Andreas Höhn]

why not using a focus puller ?

 

[nick allsop]

The Red is a digital cinema camera and should be treated like 35mm. you should be using a focus puller. A good focus puller uses a monitor as back up to check framing. The LCDs used on 35mm cameras are not high def . Focus pullers are highly skilled.

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

Well that's true...be even a 35mm camera has a true glass viewfinder to allow spot checking.
The red is indeed a digital cinema camera...but so is the F900 and the F23 and other digital cam..yet you can still focus (for the most part) using a high def monitor. Also the RED was priced in the range of Indi filmmakers as well...and we all know we can't always afford the best focus puller in this market. I tried the EX1 it has indeed a very nice useful focus assist. I am not here to complain. I was just looking for advice and pointers...With todays high tech, I don't understand why we still cannot rely on our high tech, high def monitor devices that we have available to us! I guess we'll see what happens tomorrow. I've never had to really worry about focusing with most high end cameras we have used before. :blush:

 

[Matthew Verkler]

Well that's true...be even a 35mm camera has a true glass viewfinder to allow spot checking.
The red is indeed a digital cinema camera...but so is the F900 and the F23 and other digital cam..yet you can still focus (for the most part) using a high def monitor. Also the RED was priced in the range of Indi filmmakers as well...and we all know we can't always afford the best focus puller in this market. I tried the EX1 it has indeed a very nice useful focus assist. I am not here to complain. I was just looking for advice and pointers...With todays high tech, I don't understand why we still cannot rely on our high tech, high def monitor devices that we have available to us! I guess we'll see what happens tomorrow. I've never had to really worry about focusing with most high end cameras we have used before. :blush:

The simple fact is that Red at 4K is NOT a 2/3" or 1/2" camera, and your comparisons to EX1, F900 etc. are not good ones. One of the big draws for Red is the Super35 (ish) sensor size. For a given framing (don't even start on that DOF argument!), Red will have much less DOF, which is a useful feature for many, but it also makes focusing much more difficult. And, at 1080P or 2K a shot may seem in focus, but 4K would reveal it's slightly soft. The only way to equalize that while keeping a shallower DOF (and maybe this is a good option for indies) is to downrez to 2K for final output - that'll remove a lot of focus issues.

Yes, 1:1 zoom is essential, but it won't be very helpful during a dynamic shot; a top focus puller makes all the difference. 1:1 would be nice on playback to CONFIRM focus, and of course for setting up shots.

As mentioned above, try to work with smaller apertures if possible, F4 and above. Or downrez to 2K or shoot 2K if you can't afford a good focus puller. Or, on difficult shots, work with a wider lens for a deeper DOF.

I've been "spoiled" too by digital cameras with smaller sensor sizes, and am working hard to get my skills back where they need to be with Red. I don't have my Red yet, though my money goes out today; I'm very curious to see how 2K acquisition is with Red, as it might be useful for times with smaller crews.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Focus on focus on ...

Focus on focus on ...

First off the EVF rocks hard. I shot a live concert WFO on an 85mm T1.3 Zeiss SuperSpeed the other night with no puller. When I spot checked the footage the next day I had nailed the focus over 95% of the time. On the RED LCD or the 8.4" Panny LCD I could never have managed that, NO WAY.

That said, the ability to assign a 1:1 output to the RED LCD for the 1st AC while recording would be a welcome feature.

I also would be interested to see an option to display Graeme's focus assist waveform with more precision. In its current iteration the difference between a focus peak and slightly out is only a few pixels which makes it hard to read. It seems that the tech is generating the info we need to drill focus but not displaying it clearly enough - perhaps it could be mapped to a larger waveform and laid over a semi-transparent (similar to the look-around area now) version of the image so you could still see framing? Just thinking out loud...

 

[Barry Green]

Only once in a while? The only solutions I see to this is going to be either the EVF is so f'n good you can see this stuff

EVF is still 720p.

OR they are going to have to add a Sony/JVC style focus assist so low rez monitor can actually be used to indicate focus.

Something like this would be unbelievably valuable. I can't believe they don't have something like this already.

 

[Barry Green]

You can focus in 1080P off a tiny screen and it's bang on every time. RED's clearly missing that ability now.

Red doesn't appear to have "peaking" enabled yet. That's sorely missed.

 

[Barry Green]

The Red is a digital cinema camera and should be treated like 35mm. you should be using a focus puller. A good focus puller uses a monitor as back up to check framing. The LCDs used on 35mm cameras are not high def . Focus pullers are highly skilled.

Which applies *only* if someone is using properly collimated and professionally housed cinema lenses with proper witness marks, etc. And that is simply not going to apply to a lot of Red users. Anyone using a Nikon mount, for example, is *not* going to be able to pull focus off a tape measure! Even the existing Red 18-50 doesn't have witness marks; how is an AC supposed to pull perfect focus with that?

And people want to be able to interchange the Nikon and PL mount, even in the field. How are you going to set backfocus properly in a circumstance like that? Not by eye on a 720p monitor!

Simple answer, inescapable answer, the only answer, is that we need a new solution. We need something like Graeme's Magic Focus Assist x 100. That focus graph is mildly useful in some circumstances, largely useless in others. It needs to be way more sensitive if we're going to be able to use it. But that doesn't have to be the answer, there are other ways. The main goal is: We need a mathematical, 4K-based solution. Pixel-for-pixel would be one way to do it. Brilliantly-sharp peaking/"focus in red" would be another way. But guys, the Red is incomplete until it has such a feature.

 

[Barry Green]

It seems that the tech is generating the info we need to drill focus but not displaying it clearly enough - perhaps it could be mapped to a larger waveform and laid over a semi-transparent (similar to the look-around area now) version of the image so you could still see framing?

Agreed 1,000%.

 

[Jason Ing]

let's think out of the box. just because it's like something doesn't mean we should do it the industry standard way. would red even exist if Jim thought that way too? he could afford to shoot film,etc., but thankfully he's an innovator.

creating new tools/methods with new technology is exciting. i'm looking forward to someone's cleverness. if just the camera operator could "easily" hit focus would be fantastic.

The Red is a digital cinema camera and should be treated like 35mm. you should be using a focus puller. A good focus puller uses a monitor as back up to check framing. The LCDs used on 35mm cameras are not high def . Focus pullers are highly skilled.

 

[Stuart English]

Focus assist comments

Focus assist comments

EVF is still 720p.

Something like this would be unbelievably valuable. I can't believe they don't have something like this already.

Yes, the EVF is 1280 x 720p but the practical experience is you can certainly pull focus on it - that's a data point to bear in mind.

And we DO have a focus assist overlay waveform plus image magnify for the LCD / EVF / HD-SDI outputs.

What we offer is what we believe to be the best solution available at this time.

(Note: The RED-EVF is currently the highest resolution EVF on the market, and there are NO compact LCD's with more than 1024 x 800 resolution)

 

[Steve Sanacore]

As much as I want the 100% image zoom for setting static focus points. You can't expect to have a 35mm film camera look, (which is exactly what I want), without 35mm film camera focusing needs. There is NO substitute for an excellent AC. Auto focusing or any other electronic helper will not replace a good AC who can predict when to change and tweek the focus as the actor moves or misses their mark. Maybe the RED will usher in new solutions to a problem that any new 35mm sized sensor cameras will have to deal with.

 

[Laco Zamba]

It's focus assist. Magic vanished :-(

 

[Barry Green]

The Red EVF is the highest-res EVF, yes. But it's still only showing a 720P display. Without some sort of focus assist in it, you can't possibly guarantee that you're nailing exact focus. Not only that, very few people anywhere have the EVF, and those receiving their cameras today aren't going to have EVFs for months and months -- and that's if they pony up the $3,000 to buy it (which I have done, by the way; I'm not knocking the EVF, but certainly you have to understand that it's not the solution for many.)

The focus assist overlay is the right idea but the implementation is inadequate. I use it. It ain't good enough. And while it might be of some value in setting static focus marks, it's really not much good once the action begins.

The image magnify is not, in any measureable way, satisfactory. It's better than nothing, but it's not in the same league as the way the image magnify works on an EX1, HVX, or even a $699 HV20. I grant you that it does bring some improvement. It's a step in the right direction, but that journey is not complete until we have mega magnification so we can truly get pinpoint focus.

You're trying to match the performance of a cinema camera. Cinema cameras have optical viewfinders. We need the focus precision that one can achieve with an optical viewfinder. That's probably not truly approachable until we have a 1:1 focus display.

What we offer is what we believe to be the best solution available at this time.

Well, this statement makes me a little worried. Does this statement mean you're not actively planning on improving these features? Because they simply are not adequate yet.

The ideal would be a 1:1 pixel display window that we could move around with the joystick. It should pop up in the lower left or lower right corner and provide maybe a 1/6th screen window of magnification so we can still use the main screen for framing. And the area that it shows as magnified should be selectable by driving the joystick around.

Again, I ask -- without something like this, how are you supposed to be able to judge back focus? How are you supposed to be able to judge full 4K focus?

This, or something with comparable functionality, is IMO mandatory.

 

[Brook Willard]

Peaking is enabled... I'm using it on set today.

 

[Brent J. Craig]

The red is indeed a digital cinema camera...but so is the F900 and the F23 and other digital cam..yet you can still focus.

The Red is not using a 2/3" chip to shoot 1080. If you want that, shoot in 2K - which will increase your depth of field.

You need a good focus puller. Actually you need a great focus puller. I have been focussing 35mm for 15 years and I can honestly say Red is a whole new beast. The sheer resolution and grainlessness of Red 4K makes focus much more critical than it has been on other systems. It's more like Imax than 35mm.

I find it totally acceptable to pull focus off of Red's video assist using a good monitor like the Panasonic 9 inch.