Focus....

[Adam Etherington]

Am I the only person that finds the advent of auto focus into the mainstream cinematic profession a little sad, if not worrying.

I'm a massive fan of the technological advancement that RED has brought to the industry, and this is no way directed at the company in particular. I just think that there is the real danger that autofocus technology will offer producers another excuse to cut a crew member from already overstretched camera teams. I had these exact same feelings when I was looking at the Arri autofocus systems at the BSC show earlier this year.

The technology will cost jobs on frontline production crews. Fact. It is undoubtedly going to be seen by (some) producers as an easy way to cut budgets and replace a crew-member with a piece of easily affordable equipment. I already have a constant fight to get a loader onto projects, and I can see conversations now whereby producers with little understanding of the true roles of the 1st and 2nd AC's will be eager to cut the positions from their slate in order to put precious pennies elsewhere.

I just think that companies such as RED and Arri have the power to price and make selective choices over the affordability of certain technologies that they are developing, and should be aware of how those technologies will directly affect the humanitarian elements of the industry they are servicing, and ultimately profiting from.

Congratulations on the achievement, it is truly an extremely impressive advancement. However I just wanted to ask those in the positions of power to take a second to reflect on the realities of how this technology may and most likely will impact on all of our jobs, and our industry as a whole.

Just my 2p worth. Merry Christmas All!

 

[Paul Provost]

well, the digital cinema technology has upended the whole industry. Are you shedding tears for the film labs, telecine houses, film stock manufacturers? Jobs are being lost all over. everyone just has to find a place to fit in.

 

[Detlev Eller]

... Congratulations on the achievement, it is truly an extremely impressive advancement. However I just wanted to ask those in the positions of power to take a second to reflect on the realities of how this technology may and most likely will impact on all of our jobs, and our industry as a whole.

lol ... ok. lets get back to horse riding and dealing in potatoes then ... we could as well live in caves and pray to the gods of the sun.

it´s called evolution ... :sifone:

disruptive technologies are very disturbing for the so called "status quo" ...
Me liking it a lot!

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Am I the only person that finds the advent of auto focus into the mainstream cinematic profession a little sad, if not worrying.

I'm a massive fan of the technological advancement that RED has brought to the industry, and this is no way directed at the company in particular. I just think that there is the real danger that autofocus technology will offer producers another excuse to cut a crew member from already overstretched camera teams. I had these exact same feelings when I was looking at the Arri autofocus systems at the BSC show earlier this year.

The technology will cost jobs on frontline production crews. Fact. It is undoubtedly going to be seen by (some) producers as an easy way to cut budgets and replace a crew-member with a piece of easily affordable equipment. I already have a constant fight to get a loader onto projects, and I can see conversations now whereby producers with little understanding of the true roles of the 1st and 2nd AC's will be eager to cut the positions from their slate in order to put precious pennies elsewhere.

I just think that companies such as RED and Arri have the power to price and make selective choices over the affordability of certain technologies that they are developing, and should be aware of how those technologies will directly affect the humanitarian elements of the industry they are servicing, and ultimately profiting from.

Congratulations on the achievement, it is truly an extremely impressive advancement. However I just wanted to ask those in the positions of power to take a second to reflect on the realities of how this technology may and most likely will impact on all of our jobs, and our industry as a whole.

Just my 2p worth. Merry Christmas All!

Even so I do understand were you coming from and completely understand your points, there is also to take in consideration PROGRESS, this does not stop and
should not stop, we must find ourself in a continuously evolutionary Progress, inevitable, thank GOD, and as it has happened and continues to happen in many
other industries were Machines, Robotic production lines, and or Tools ranging form Agriculture, were Tractors take the jobs of hundreds of Human that were
before revolving the grounds with a shovel and so on, will it be better for all those people to keep their jobs and stop Evolution and Progress??
OFF COURSE NOT, we evolve and so should the JOBS.

BTW: With out PROGRESS there will not be CAMERAS to make movies with today, and there for there would be no LENSES Either, and FOCUS PULLERS,
will have no LENSES to PULL FOCUS on, so they would simply not exist either...

Merry Christmas

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Am I the only person that finds the advent of auto focus into the mainstream cinematic profession a little sad, if not worrying.

I'm a massive fan of the technological advancement that RED has brought to the industry, and this is no way directed at the company in particular. I just think that there is the real danger that autofocus technology will offer producers another excuse to cut a crew member from already overstretched camera teams. I had these exact same feelings when I was looking at the Arri autofocus systems at the BSC show earlier this year.

The technology will cost jobs on frontline production crews. Fact. It is undoubtedly going to be seen by (some) producers as an easy way to cut budgets and replace a crew-member with a piece of easily affordable equipment. I already have a constant fight to get a loader onto projects, and I can see conversations now whereby producers with little understanding of the true roles of the 1st and 2nd AC's will be eager to cut the positions from their slate in order to put precious pennies elsewhere.

I just think that companies such as RED and Arri have the power to price and make selective choices over the affordability of certain technologies that they are developing, and should be aware of how those technologies will directly affect the humanitarian elements of the industry they are servicing, and ultimately profiting from.

Congratulations on the achievement, it is truly an extremely impressive advancement. However I just wanted to ask those in the positions of power to take a second to reflect on the realities of how this technology may and most likely will impact on all of our jobs, and our industry as a whole.

Just my 2p worth. Merry Christmas All!

It's all abot upping the baselines... You can not get worse results than whatever...

In cinematic productions, a Focus Puller is an integrated part of the storytelling. It's not only about hitting the focus, but timing, how fast or slow and where and to what extent one puts focus at a particular point in a scene.

That can not be automated.

What you seem to forget is the huge variety of gigs where there are allready no focus puller present. For those gigs, the focus will now not be worse than what one can acchieve with the touchscreen.

That's a huge improvement of "general imagery".

For specialiced tasks, one will allways will ned the specialists.

Gibby might jump in here with his very relevant mantra about how he and others shoot S35 in one-man-band setups. That's cool and very right, but also doesn't cover ALL shooting scenarios. As this will not cover all scenarios.

Of course there will be discussions with producers and of course these developments will lead to new shooting styles and new "star" DP's who use these new tools for new types of imagery. Like the DSLR thingy has done.

But that does not take away jobs for the specialists who are excellent at their craft. Because new ways of telling stories only add to the arsenal. It doesn't really take away anything...

Just my 2,5 øre...

 

[Detlev Eller]

In cinematic productions, a Focus Puller is an integrated part of the storytelling. It's not only about hitting the focus, but timing, how fast or slow and where and to what extent one puts focus at a particular point in a scene.

... this is the part, that was always frightening to me personally ... to many people involved into creating a shot .... to much stuff going on, deviating from what i see in my minds eye ... i like to reduce "it" to the minimum, ideally location, grip, actors .... and cinemarobotics ... ;-)

That can not be automated.

well, theoretically, it can ... and some secret lab may already do it ... ;-) ...

basically, it needs good realtime image analysis tools (as in tracking aka computing power and algos) ...
i imagine ... (as in simulate) ... that REDs touch screen focus is already right on track for THIS kind of evolution ....

pick your object and it will stay in focus .... is not so far away ...

programming an object independent "movement of the field of focus in space", from foreground to middle or whatever ... can already be done ...

of course, this changes the process of doing "it" ... from old school ... to fresh thinking.
Me liking it a lot!!

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Yup... but that would be like automated mixing of the audio for a band... Sound engineers still have gigs... -

I see your point, and for a lot of gigs it will be excellent, as I said.

When you see these huge image making machines actually work well (With a DP and a FP that know eachother well and are capabele to interact with the scene) that can not that easilly be programmed, as it to some degree is interaction with the unplanned an unexpected that makes a scene shine... -

I am not aginst this.
But I think the "noone can predict where a butterfly flies" sentiment, is part of what makes art and craft, art and craft - and not animations...

Cheers!

 

[Detlev Eller]

Adam,

... what you are describing has happened in print in the 90ies ... a whole profession DIED! ... and later on in the 2000s until today ... a new industry ... digital pre-production creating the "films" to copy the printing plates ... is dying again. it´s called "computer to plate" now .... for who can afford the machines.

i thought it would happen earlier in film (as in motion pictures and commercials) ... but it took a company like RED to pave the way ...

Ignoring the status quo and defining the new rules for themselves - driven by outcome - not history or heritage.

this might be painful. many people will loose their jobs.
But that is how it is. Nothing do do about it.

At the same time, new opportunities are created.
Who wants to keep on going, must learn and invest. It is an opportunity, for everyone.

 

[Detlev Eller]

Gunleik,

i am with you on the same page!

Nothing can substitute the magic moments.

But then, creating a complete new framework ....
different kind of magic will inevitably occur ... so nothing lost at the end.
it´s just different.

According to the theory of constraints .... building a good crew and training the "dance" ... is critical. To me, it seems like a hugely blown up procedure. Have one team member fail ... and all others fail with 'em. I just don´t like this. The cost of doing so in terms of time and money are prohibitive.

... which leads me thinking about alternatives ... all day long!

lol ...

P.S:
good we can hang out here during christmas festivities ... and think

 

[Gunleik Groven]

LOL, all good.

And as stated. I will be using this a lot. It opens new possibilities. It doesn't take away any of the old.

 

[Adam Etherington]

One thing I love about this forum is that you get a complete cross-section of perspectives on any issue raised. Very interesting reading.

Are you shedding tears for the film labs, telecine houses, film stock manufacturers?

I did as much for any of my friends that are currently watching their professions begin to pass into the history books as for those friends whose career may be soon to go. It is sad but as you say, progression has a price.

I think that perhaps my opinions and perspective are rather tellingly bias by my own experience and background. I grew up in drama and that is where the majority of my work remains. I’m a firm believer in film as being a collaborative entity (to various extents of course, depending on the individuals involved) and I am of the opinion that, as Gunleik said, the “ Focus Puller is an integrated part of the storytelling.”

I’m not by any means suggesting that RED or any other company change their objectives in terms of what technology to develop. That would be a completely illogical ad pretty daft thing to say. I’m just saying that it would be good if the companies that do pioneer these incredible technologies develop them in such a way that they are designed to aid and improve the work of the professionals that manage them, as opposed to replacing people’s roles outright.

I also think that it’s up to me as a consumer of these technologies to ensure that I adopt them in such a way that mirrors the intentions reflected in the above statement.

 

[Stefan Antonescu]

I have read all 46 pages and things aren't very clear to me... Sorry if this has been answered before.

With a DSLR I like using continuous AF with one or multiple AF points by pushing the button halfway to focus and than take the photo I want. This is very useful when the subject is moving.

Would such a thing be possible with EPIC in MOTION ?

 

[Niko Pueringer]

I’m just saying that it would be good if the companies that do pioneer these incredible technologies develop them in such a way that they are designed to aid and improve the work of the professionals that manage them, as opposed to replacing people’s roles outright.

A piece of technology that effectively fills the role of a person is a step forward. Less crew to manage, less expenses on a shoot, freedom for the filmmaker to effectively shoot without complication.

Machines rarely match the expertise of a human, so if you want to still use a focus puller, there is no one stopping you. At the same time, I am really excited for a feature that helps to pull focus automatically and effectively.

 

[Jon Sagud]

I have read all 46 pages and things aren't very clear to me... Sorry if this has been answered before.

With a DSLR I like using continuous AF with one or multiple AF points by pushing the button halfway to focus and than take the photo I want. This is very useful when the subject is moving.

Would such a thing be possible with EPIC in MOTION ?

Absolutely, yes! Focus Priority, Continuous Focus, Predictive Focus and Focus Tracking, with user selected AF cells, will all be possible in both still and motion modes.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Absolutely, yes! Focus Priority, Continuous Focus, Predictive Focus and Focus Tracking, with user selected AF cells, will all be possible in both still and motion modes.

That's a fantastic confirmation for all of us hybrid, EFP, and stills shooters who will be using the new electronic mounts and Canon, Nikon, and Red Electronic lenses on Epic and Scarlet :thumbup1:

Thanks for spreading the word...

 

[Mark Phelan]

That's a fantastic confirmation for all of us hybrid, EFP, and stills shooters who will be using the new electronic mounts and Canon, Nikon, and Red Electronic lenses on Epic and Scarlet :thumbup1:

Thanks for spreading the word...

Absolutely and I want to know when the Nikon mount will be available!!!!

 

[Eren Ozkural]

My collection of Nikon glass and I salute you Jon

 

[Stefan Antonescu]

Absolutely, yes! Focus Priority, Continuous Focus, Predictive Focus and Focus Tracking, with user selected AF cells, will all be possible in both still and motion modes.

Thank you so much Jon !

This is incredible... This single feature is more important to me than HDRx...

IMHO, this is a game changer in focus pulling. Wow !!!

 

[Bill Goehring]

Great! This is reassuring news to hear that these plans are still on track, as I have updated all of my Nikkor glass to AF-S over the past year, counting on using it for both stills and motion media work.

 

[Yannick Verry]

Absolutely, yes! Focus Priority, Continuous Focus, Predictive Focus and Focus Tracking, with user selected AF cells, will all be possible in both still and motion modes.

How about the focus tracking performances with Canon L lenses like 16-35 or 24-70 (which we've seen a lot on Epic during the past few months) ?