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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Focus Assist

G

G.A. Kokes

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Hi,

I came across this interesting focus assist by JVC the other day:

http://camcorder.jvc.com/microsites/GZHD3/features.html

It's less then half way down the page. It seems like a very intuitive method. Is their any details of how the Red's Magic Focus Assists will be implemented yet, or is the team still sorting that out?

Thanks,
G.A.
 
If it's anything like the similar one on the earlier HDV cameras it's totally useless as it's binary - on or off on edges, and the edges obscure the very focus you're trying to see.
 
It looks like a child has drawn on a photo.

With production seemingly just around the corner is there any chance of some more info about the focus assist at all Graeme or is it being saved for IBC?
 
PaulClements said:
It looks like a child has drawn on a photo.

With production seemingly just around the corner is there any chance of some more info about the focus assist at all Graeme or is it being saved for IBC?
Click to expand...

Yeah. With only a couple of weeks left why aren't they disclosing the system. Is it not patentable? Does Red fear that competition will copy it?
 
Most cameras have edge enhancement features, and JVC is just colorizing the edges to make them easier to see. I think it's a great idea. I haven't played with one in person, though, but I would like to see how well it works in the field. I think Panasonic has a similar feature called Focus-in-Red.

From Graeme's comments earlier, I'm led to believe that Red's Magic Focus will be far superior. You've gotten our hopes up Graeme, now show us the money!
 
If you hunt through the forum, or saw us at NAB you'll know all the details about magic focus assist!

I personally found the JVC system misleadingly telling me something was in focus when it was not, and the coloured edge (which in the HDV camera I used was not as thick as the edge in the link above) obscured the edge you were trying to see!

Graeme
 
"That simple focus assist works great for me when shooting with the GY-HD100 (and cousins.) Clean, simple, colored edge emphasis."

Agree with Michael
It’s extremely efficient on hd100.

Albert
----------------------
www.yayofilms.com
 
I tried it on the JVC HD100. It's like an enhanced peaking.
It's better than just using the (bad) viewfinder to focus, but it's not very precise.
I think / hope Red focus assist will be much better.

Will the red magic focus assit always be visible in the viewfinder, or will you have to press a button to activate it for a few seconds, like on the JVC / HVX ?
 
I wasn't at NAB and I pretty good about reading reduser...I don't recall seeing any detail explanation of the magic focus assist. How about a recap G ?
Aloha
-A
 
I'm not sure if JVCs version is any different from Sony's Red colored peaking or the new Panasonic Red peaking I just saw on their new monitor. I think it's very cool but I'd sure like to see what Red has cooked up. I don't think there's ever been anything definitively described on this forum or any kind of visual example that I can recall. I'd LOVE to see it though.
 
What I've gathered is that, so far it was a waveform display. A high mark on the graph indicating a sharp edge or high frequency signal. No confirmation as of yet just scattered reports.

I'm hoping for some kind of indicator within the image. While I agree with Graeme's criticism of the focus overlays blocking your actual view, comparing between an image and a waveform also worries me especially in horizontal shallow field compositions. Just a little twinkle that hangs on eyelashes and so forth is something that I've imagined could work well.

I'm sure what they come out with will be subtle, giving you confidence that what you've shot is very sharp, while at the same time allowing you to concentrate on composition. I know they've got a few more tricks up their sleeve. I'm excited to see it when it comes out.

IBloom
 
PaulClements said:
With production seemingly just around the corner is there any chance of some more info about the focus assist at all Graeme or is it being saved for IBC?
Click to expand...

IBC is mid-September and the first cameras are [tentatively] scheduled to ship by the end of August. I certainly hope we hear more about it before then! :tongue:
 
Uh, I was at NAB, and had the "magic" focus assist explained twice and then kinda got it. Mostly because it wasn't working and only a static image displayed. So truth be told, no one outside of Red has ever seen it.

To be blunt, what I saw wasn't that magic, it seemed hard to read and much less practical then a simple zoomed in image (like the Sony Z1u focus assist). For Jim to repeatedly refer to Red focus assist as "magic" I had high hopes. I hope that this is simply my misunderstanding talking and that the real thing isn't what I thought I saw at NAB.
 
Well I only got to see the still as well, but I immediately got the genius of the system. It may seem hard to read at first but so is a wave form monitor or a histogram. Once you understand the values displayed it's imensely powerful. I only hope (Enlighten me if any of you have found this in another thread) that you can turn it on in one display, like the LCD or Monitor out but leave it off in the EVF lets say.

If so then a side mounted Red LCD will be the ACs best friend and even if you can't actually hit focus at f1.2 you can at least know you're out :)
 
Some RED Team Magic Focus Assist Comments
(From the "Gibby Archives" - sequentially listed by date posted)

“Pulling focus will be the big surprise to those moving up from 1/3" or 2/3" sensors. It is a whole new ballgame. Standard LCD's won't cut it. It will take a new "trick" not seen before to help the shooter focus accurately without an optical finder (which many will tell you is still a challenge in lower light conditions). I think we have one.”

Jim Jannard
DV Info Net
5/1/06
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=66038&page=2

(Gibby note: this post was way back in May 2006. I believe Jim’s reference in the last line was to the Focus Assist)



“The RED-EVF has one or two additional capabilities I can discuss later, but essentially either one of them would be fine for camera operation. Both show Surround View, Histograms, Focus Assist, Frame Guides and Camera menus / status. As an example, if you were shooting underwater or on steadicam the RED-LCD would be the best choice.”

Stuart English
3/13/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=900&page=4



“Yes, it's on a line by line basis, not an average of that column, so it's pretty useful in most situations. And because you can see when the graph bit you're interested in peaks (a new meaning to the word peaking!) you know it's not just in focus, but in maximal focus. Traditional techniques just say that you're sorta-sharp, not maximally sharp....”

Graeme Nattress
4/19/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1540&page=5



“Remember the focus graph sees the entire image and displays a graph that gets built up from all those lines across, meaning you'll see when the other objects come into or out of focus whether they're arranged vertically or horizontally or not.”

Graeme Nattress
4/20/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1540&page=7



“It's in the list of things to get turned on in camera. When that will be is something that is effected by a large number of factors, so no predictions. The test footage I used to prototype it seemed to show that everything would work good, but the proof is in the pudding. I'm pretty confident though that this will be yet another very useful aid to camera operators, and you can never have enough useful aids.”

Graeme Nattress
4/20/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1540&page=7



“Focus “waveform” that appears under the main image”

Stuart
4/26/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2014&page=2




“So to return to the question first posed on this thread. Is the LCD sufficient to set critical focus ?

To back up the LCD's native WISIWG capability up we have two other modes of focus assistance which are available to both the RED-EVF and RED-LCD feeds - which are 1280 x 848 pixel and 1024 x 600 pixel displays respectively.

a) Native pixel analysis : - i.e. zoom into a selected portion of the 4K image at a 1:1 ratio.

b) Focus Assist : - i.e. the graphical representation of the focus within a selected area of the 4K image (as previewed at NAB with a stills mockup)”

Stuart English
5/10/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=42092&posted=1#post42092



“RED ONEs focus assist feature will certainly let the solo operator "achieve focus". The difference between that and dynamically pulling focus on actors etc is where electronics currently steps aside and human skills take over.”

Stuart English
5/11/07
RED User
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1886&page=8


----------------------


Gibby end note: I think the Magic Focus is going to kick some serious ass! I think we'll know shortly...
 

a) Native pixel analysis : - i.e. zoom into a selected portion of the 4K image at a 1:1 ratio.

b) Focus Assist : - i.e. the graphical representation of the focus within a selected area of the 4K image (as previewed at NAB with a stills mockup)”

[/QUOTE]


Cool, Gibby. I missed this one. It's hard to say what one will use more, but I like the idea of having the extra safety of image magnification along with the RED magic focus.
 
Evin Grant said:
I only hope (Enlighten me if any of you have found this in another thread) that you can turn it on in one display, like the LCD or Monitor out but leave it off in the EVF lets say.

If so then a side mounted Red LCD will be the ACs best friend and even if you can't actually hit focus at f1.2 you can at least know you're out :)
Click to expand...

I know of at least one instance where this was suggested to RED Team, and Stuart English responded that the suggestion was noted:

“Yes, it is possible to have the EVF and LCD connected at the same time Petros. As to your second point - can the LCD have focus assist enabled, but the EVF not display that - I can't comment, but the request is noted. Thanks for your feedback.”

Stuart English
10/6/06
DV Info
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=76929&highlight=RED+focus+assist

(Note: Stuart’s reply was in response to this question that preceded it: “I know its probably too late since you are near lock-down but while being in a shooting today I had an idea: If its possible to have both the lcd and viewfinder connected to the camera in the same time, then the focus puller could setup the lcd with the focus assist enabled(being a 500% zoom in, or whatever else you have planned) while the camera operator uses the EVF in normal mode. How about it?” – Petros Nousias)
 
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