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Final Word 8800 Or 3870

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Esteban Sosnitsky

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Hi everyone. Time to decide. The 3870x2 is out there in the market. Prices are reasonable. Benchmarks confusing. Which one will be, the ATI or the NVIDIA.
I have been holding the purchase of the computer in order to see what happened with the video cards. Interested in your feedback. BTW I have read every forum that includes this issues but it seems that there is no certainty. Will use FCP, AE, Color, RC and RA. (an red rushes too!!!) So... If you had to buy today, what would you get??????????????
 
I wouldn't spend much on a fancy Mac gfx card like the 3870x2. Why?

1. I don't think pro apps (incl RedCine) use the x2 function.
2. PCs are already a generation ahead - eg radeon 4850 , 4870, nVidia 260, 280. All Mac options are bad, out-of-date deals.

So it's down to 8800 vs normal 3850?

Supposedly RedCine is more nVidia friendly - so maybe go with the 8800 if it's not too expensive? If you have trouble, you can always dual boot into Windows, where RedCine works well with nVidia.

It's be great if RED had a "recommended graphics card" listed on its RedCine download page. So we didn't have to speculate.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Dunno, Esteban. It's between 3850 (standard version) if you use Color more and 8800 if you use RedCine more, I think. Either way, I'd get something cheap and expect to upgrade cards in a few months when the Mac versions of the current gen graphics cards appear.

Mac users (or RED) please chime in. Or you could just search through the bug reports, etc. I don't have direct experience - I thought the Mac options were a terrible deal - so bought a $450 craigslist PC, slapped in a cheap nVidia card, and ran RedCine on that.

Again, summary of programs: Color probably works best with the Radeon. RedCine probably works best with nVidia. AE doesn't make good use of the GPU for much yet, but that'll change with the next version, I think.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce is right. There is no dual video card support from most pro apps, especially on Mac. No dual card support for REDCINE.

The ATI 38xx cards are not a magic fix on the Mac, they're not much faster than the 8800GT card, in fact the 8800GT is still faster for various CAD / 3D applications. Comes down to what you use your system for I guess. I already have the 8800GT in my Mac Pro. It works fine, yes it can be slow compared to many offerings in the PC market. But I'm not going to "upgrade" to the ATI 3870 card for the slight bit of performance gains it will give me on a few select applications (most notable with Motion3, a program I've used twice since its release). The 8800 is still a better card for my 3D work in Modo, Maya and most of those games I don't have time to play. Heh.

I don't think either card has an advantage with REDCINE at this time. The GPU isn't a bottleneck from what I can tell. Best advice for speeding up REDCINE is faster storage, faster CPU.

FCP, Compressor and RED Alert do not use GPU acceleration, so it doesn't matter which card you choose there.

I'm not sure about After Effects and Premiere Pro if there would be any advantage, I'm kinda thinking not for PP. AE may see a slight boost with the ATI 3870 vs. the nVidia as the ATI seems to do a bit better with texture processing activities -- like we see the speed advantage with Motion.

So, to add to the uncertainty, both cards actually perform very similar it seems. Each with their own strengths and weaknesses. Pick your poison I guess. Don't spend too much money. I predict we'll see a Mac Pro refresh in September or October with new video card options. That 8800 is looking mighty stale these days. And the aftermarket 3870 is a generation behind the PC world (as Bruce points out) and it's just a middle of the road card like the 8800GT, which is really of the same vintage even though it arrived about 8 months ago -- AMD/ ATI were just slow to push out the 3870. Just like they did with the 1900XTi for Mac.
 
Bruce Allen said:
Dunno, Esteban. It's between 3850 (standard version) if you use Color more and 8800 if you use RedCine more, I think. Either way, I'd get something cheap and expect to upgrade cards in a few months when the Mac versions of the current gen graphics cards appear.

Mac users (or RED) please chime in. Or you could just search through the bug reports, etc. I don't have direct experience - I thought the Mac options were a terrible deal - so bought a $450 craigslist PC, slapped in a cheap nVidia card, and ran RedCine on that.

Again, summary of programs: Color probably works best with the Radeon. RedCine probably works best with nVidia. AE doesn't make good use of the GPU for much yet, but that'll change with the next version, I think.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...

Hey Bruce (or anybody with thoughts)

A hypothetical... From a workflow perspective, would it be better to have a video card with slower but larger DDR2 memory (like a GB) or less memory but faster DDR3?
 
I think the 3870 might be the better option. I just ordered one yesterday. At one point I thought Rob had said that ATI on Mac was a better option for the Red apps due to some kind of problem with NVidia drivers. I can say that on my Macbook Pro, I get terrible tearing when playing video sometimes, and it is a well known issue with the Nvidia driver. Apple's response - they're working on it. That was several months ago.

Maybe Rob can chime in if there has been updates that we need to know about.
 
Oh, and I'm upgrading from the stock ATI card that came with the Mac Pro.
 
The tearing on playback is an issue on the Mac with all video card options. Apple needs to do some fixing with their drivers and display sync. Of course, I'd like them to fix the QT gamma issues first...

I don't think anyone will go wrong by getting either the 8800GT or the ATI 3870. For those like Steve with the stock ATI 2600, the 3870 may be a better choice simply because it's easy to get ahold and could be cheaper than getting an 8800GT from Apple.
 
Hello,

The 3870 has better core app performance if you are using Final Cut Studio. I'm not sure how to benchmark the RED software.

I've had a 3870 on order for weeks from OWC. They kept pushing the date back, but apparently it's going to ship the first week of August.

However, I came across someone on Arstechnica that had two cards and sold me one. It replaced my about to die X1900XT.

Working great! Feels snappier than the old X1900XT.

I left my order on the other one. Have another machine I need to put it in.

I can run benchmarks if specify which one you would like.

Best,

ATF
 
number6 said:
Hey Bruce (or anybody with thoughts)

A hypothetical... From a workflow perspective, would it be better to have a video card with slower but larger DDR2 memory (like a GB) or less memory but faster DDR3?
Click to expand...

Hehe... from a workflow perspective all you really want is a card that works stably when you leave it to render overnight. With RedCine this is easier said than done.

Also, often the bottleneck with RedCine is hard drive transfer speed.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Great feedback everyone. Very much appreciated, specially the part of pick your own poison Jeff heh. I guess there is not much certainty on this issue. I dont understand much what PC and MAC standards are, honestly. And there is not much spare time to spend trying to figure out which card works best. I though I was gonna buy the ATI for its specs but I guess the 8800 is pretty well for now. Can someone suggest between the 8800 various versions?
GT, GTS, GTX, Ultra? I dont think its worth getting the 3870 if its outdated and it doesnt take advantage of the x2 feature.
 
estebanred said:
Great feedback everyone. Very much appreciated, specially the part of pick your own poison Jeff heh. I guess there is not much certainty on this issue. I dont understand much what PC and MAC standards are, honestly. And there is not much spare time to spend trying to figure out which card works best. I though I was gonna buy the ATI for its specs but I guess the 8800 is pretty well for now. Can someone suggest between the 8800 various versions?
GT, GTS, GTX, Ultra? I dont think its worth getting the 3870 if its outdated and it doesnt take advantage of the x2 feature.
Click to expand...

Well, they're both outdated though aren't they?:wink:

Let's face it, the computer industry has this all figured out pretty well. Don't give them everything, otherwise you'll have nothing new to market. As soon as you buy, it's just about outdated. I think the key is to get a stable system in place, use it for as long as you can in your business, and when the time comes when business needs to upgrade in order to get work, then you do the homework and make as many good decisions as you can. Otherwise, you end up chasing your tail, which I'm doing a little of right now because I haven't listened to my own advice.
 
stevesherrick said:
Otherwise, you end up chasing your tail, which I'm doing a little of right now because I haven't listened to my own advice.
Click to expand...

heheheheheheh You got me laughing LOUD with this statement man!!! I guess I understand that whenever you buy something its already outdated. So I guess your choice was the ATI as you posted before. Thanks for sharing.
 
Yes, Steve is giving great advice. He should listen to himself more. :)

Don't worry about the differences between the 8800 models because on the Mac it doesn't matter, you can only buy and use the 8800GT that Apple sells. But to simplify, the GT is the lowest and slowest of the line with the Ultra being the fastest with a couple extra features.
 
So is it really between the 3870 and the 8800? or are there any better cards out there. I thought from what I have seen online in mac configurations that there is not much more you can do about this. I am one click away from the add to cart button here heh! ;)
 
ATF said:
Hello,

The 3870 has better core app performance if you are using Final Cut Studio. I'm not sure how to benchmark the RED software.

I've had a 3870 on order for weeks from OWC. They kept pushing the date back, but apparently it's going to ship the first week of August.

However, I came across someone on Arstechnica that had two cards and sold me one. It replaced my about to die X1900XT.

Working great! Feels snappier than the old X1900XT.

I left my order on the other one. Have another machine I need to put it in.

I can run benchmarks if specify which one you would like.

Best,

ATF
Click to expand...

I have a 3070 here in an 8 core 3.0 Intel mac - hate to admit it - but it's a damn fast card - will do some RedCine comparisons shortly -
 
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