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Filming in public, what can I get away with?

Les Dittert

Les Dittert

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I am in Los Angeles and have been wondering what I might expect as far as shooting in public places. It will be a side by side 3d rig designed for compactness, but it will obviously not look like a consumer camera. I need some advice on what to expect. I'll be testing with mostly wide cityscape shots, as well as some 'popular' areas where there are more people. Does shooting with a tripod change things? I know as a still photographer, I have fairly well defined rights to photograph in public places, but do these rights extend to motion camera work? The footage is for tests only, and will not be sold.

-Les
 
I will recommend to check with the places where you will be shooting. Cinematography have more strict rules than still photography.
I was at Yellowstone National Park testing a lens from a pro-photographer I met at the park. At some point a Park Ranger come to me and ask for the Commercial Filming Permit.
I explained to him I was just testing a lens and I wasn’t doing commercial work; the guy did not listen to me and in a very rude manner threaten me of throw me in jail if I do not place my gear inside my car right away.
The photographer that was with me checking the lens was under a contract for a well know magazine doing landscape and nature photography, and the Park Ranger don’t even talk to him… Seems the Red camera was more impressive than the Hasselblad H4D 200.
After checking the permit I had in order to film at The Grand Teton National Park and Yellowstone’s permits webpage I did not find anything that affirm that testing equipment, filming for personal use or for stock footage requires a permit…So, the park ranger was plain wrong. But he was/is the law in the Park premises, meaning no room for dialogue.
I had similar situation in Boston with a Cop, although at that time I was stilling some Cityscape shots……..
 
Venice, Santa Monica and Beverly Hills will be a problem without permits. Anywhere near bridges, waterfront, government buildings, airport or subway will bring Police or Homeland Security, to at least check you out. My Uncle is a location manager in LA and shoots there every day.
 
Les Dittert said:
.. I know as a still photographer, I have fairly well defined rights to photograph in public places, but do these rights extend to motion camera work?...
Click to expand...

We used to have this right..but since 9/11 the police act completely ignorant of this right.

The ACLU has a lawsuit against LA County Sheriffs...apparently they are harassing press photographers doing stories..
students doing school projects..professional photographers doing art projects.

This link to the lawsuit shows video of one such encounter at the subway station at Hollywood Blvd. and Western Ave....only
about a mile away from Red Studios. It is not safe out there for photographers in Los Angeles or anywhere really in America.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/10/aclu-sues-.html
 
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I just graduated from a film school in the middle of hollywood (sunset and ivar) and we have school projects shut down all the time. If it even looks remotely professional (matte box and boom pole are the things I find give you away the fastest) the cops jump all over it. the only way I have found to get away with guerrilla shooting in the more populated areas is grab a 5D and look like a tourist.
 
Hey Christian,
My story is almost the exact oposite from the guys above. I have more than a few little test/nobudg shoots in LA and have never had much of a problem. We were smart about what we did and didn't get in anyone's way and tried our best to treat people with respect and never had a problem. We were shooting with a HVX and we had cops come by to ask us what we were doing, we said shooting a music video, they said cool and went on their way (there was only 4 of us in the crew). I have found people are cool if you don't try to control things to much, and if some store owner or passerby (or cop) wants to give you a hassle, then pack up and move to the next location to stay out of trouble (you can go back when the shop is closed).

I guess just be corteous to other people's lives as well as your own, I have never heard of anyone being ticketed by a cop or having any real problems until they did some sort of "I know my rights! I'm don't have to move along!" Then you will have problems.

Good luck dude!
 
You shouldn't try to film in public unless you have a permit, a sign that says "film in progress" or something like that to warn passersby, a small skeleton crew, a small camera with no accessories, and an absolute need to do so.

In any case, if you can get something really quick, like someone walking into a building or place (not big brand recognizable like Walmart), then be quick about it, one or two takes at most. Unless you have major VFX skills and can replace signs, remove people, modify buildings, you have to be prepared to jump through some major hoops and that great shot you have in your mind will end up being a slightly mediocre filler shot in absolutely every case except for the 0.01% of the time.

There are a lot of things you have to consider when filming in public. The biggest being other people. Some people don't want to be filmed, they're just out shopping and enjoying the day, not being the star of your new movie. If you have to film them, it had better be in a legally public area, filmed in a way that does not feature anyone outside your cast, and it shouldn't affect anything anyone is doing (ie. a thief running out of a store and bumping into or scaring people). The other thing you have to consider is the place you're filming. Are there any visibly recognizable logos or trademarks anywhere? Is the place itself a recognizable brand? Simply framing out the sign of the building could help but that doesn't work for most places, especially if there's a certain architectural style or overall design which could have been designed by a famous artist or architect, then you have to consider their copyright. You also have to consider the simple idea that there could be a better location somewhere else that's not as highly trafficked or recognizable (ie. why do you have to film at your local grocery store? Why not go over to the no-name grocery store on the other side of town?) It may work out better for your movie in the end.

Overall, you should have permission from everyone involved before doing anything. Big budget Hollywood productions have to go through just the same hassle that you will to get a permit and the best part is that you won't have to look over your shoulder and worry at every moment of the shoot.
 
The law as far as if permits are required in LA is that unless it is for personal use only, then a permit is required. So anything that's a test, for YouTube, reel, or anything that isn't vacation video can be a problem if stopped. I had to pay about $750 in fines for getting caught without a permit in a very remote area last spring. The cops drove by originally and didn't say anything, but some pedestrians called in a complaint so they were forced to write me up.

Other than that I've been quickly questioned in LA but never any problems. Your best bet is to apply for a permit exemption which covers a cast and crew of 2 or 3 allowing them to operate essentially as a news crew without needing permits. I've used one before and it was relatively easy to get from FilmLA.

Tim
 
Hollywood Sign

Hollywood Sign

Just an FYI, believe it or not, the Hollywood sign is a copyrighted image- managed by a company called 'Global Icons.' It's very expensive to use in a commercial application. You will probably get away with using it in a 'news' application, but they'll come after you if you don't pay them and use it commercially. (We're working on a spot right now where our client negotiated to use it.)

This is a surprisingly little-known rule, true of many well-known publicly viewable buildings and icons. I believe the Eiffel Tour has similar restrictions (but it's not in LA, last I checked.)
 
So in my case : no cast , no sound, no crew other than me and perhaps a friend. Not for sale or distribution of any kind. Public property.
I know from the still photographers standpoint, that a tripod can attract attention of bored cops, and that combined with a stereo rig will attract cops who these days like to treat all people as threats.
Since I have no way to prove that's it's for personal use as a test, it's a legal challenge.

When challenged as a still photographer, you can tell them to go ahead and arrest you, and then you can sue for false arrest. That usually makes them do a bunch of calls to learn your rights as a citizen.
But with an even more professional looking rig, this might be more trouble. I would use no matte box but the side by side rig is still big.
Maybe printing out the pertinent laws and laminating it, like still guys do, would help?
 
If you are doing a 3d test, pertinent permit law says you need a permit, so that won't help you. Call film la and get an exemption, its free or almost free and will make things really easy for you

Tim
 
drew sandoval said:
Hey Christian,
My story is almost the exact oposite from the guys above. I have more than a few little test/nobudg shoots in LA and have never had much of a problem. We were smart about what we did and didn't get in anyone's way and tried our best to treat people with respect and never had a problem. We were shooting with a HVX and we had cops come by to ask us what we were doing, we said shooting a music video, they said cool and went on their way (there was only 4 of us in the crew). I have found people are cool if you don't try to control things to much, and if some store owner or passerby (or cop) wants to give you a hassle, then pack up and move to the next location to stay out of trouble (you can go back when the shop is closed).

I guess just be corteous to other people's lives as well as your own, I have never heard of anyone being ticketed by a cop or having any real problems until they did some sort of "I know my rights! I'm don't have to move along!" Then you will have problems.

Good luck dude!
Click to expand...

Drew, I agree with you about being polite...(Rule of thumb). In my 20+ years of filmmaking in Europe, North and South America, I never had a experience like the one in Yellowstone. The guy was totally rude and maybe the situation has changed in last decade. My first time filming in Yellowstone was 1999. I did not have a permit and I got the help of one the Park Rangers while shooting a grizzly eating an elk. I was never asked for a permit. I know the drill...believe me.
I just wanted to answer Les’ question and share my experience with him. Again, if you know in advance where you will be shooting, I do recommend checking with the regulation of the place before the shoot and get a permit, maybe complicated to get it, but at the end are not expensive at all.
 
In the UK, I know its ok to take pictures of anything as long as you are in a public area and not on private property, that includes taking pictures of private property... however, obviously things are at peoples discretion, so you have to be sure to keep everything personal or if its for project your going to sell you need to have a release form (theres an iPhone version of the release form so you don't have to carry tons of papers, just a pen they can sign with)

That said...in terms of filming, the minute you plant your tripod to film something, personal or for commercial you are expected to have a permit and pay something... (I believe around 400 pound an hour?) So the laws are distinctively different...
Clearly its best to get a permit, to ask the local council etc. just to be on the safe side...
Great thing is that EPIC has the potential to look DSLR but if your worried or unclear, your best way is to confirm everything with your local authorities, that way you know what grounds you stand on when/if you get questioned...

I'm assuming the laws are similar in the US, the distintive difference between filming and photography...
 
Even though FilmLA is a non-profit organization, they're going to tell you that there are very few situations that you can get away with for not having a permit within city limits, especially in public places. It's much, much less potential hassle to just call them and ask, and pay the money. Bear in mind that if you're caught shooting without a permit, you have to pay a fine and the fee. If it's just a test, they may give you a waiver, but you gotta at least ask:

FilmLA
213.977.8600
http://www.filmla.com/
 
you should ask yourself how instead of can you. i am a motion control photographer living and working in LA and have spent a good amount of time in downtown as well as many other locations in and around LA. and the truth is. people don't want you shooting anywhere. everywhere you go is private property and chances are they have security who is trained to tell you to leave.

so. the question you should be asking yourself. given the scenario, is how can you go about shooting? your ability depends on your preparation and understanding of the location. how many security guards? where are they patrolling? and how often. do you know the guy? is he laid back? sometimes the best place to shoot is right under there noses. they never look there.

sounds easy, but it's not. but trust me. you can get away with murder. i've shot in so many places that people told me i'd never ever be able to. all it took was a little time and research. and don't be scared to social engineer people to get what you need. nobody truly owns an image and the laws that are set up in todays age are absurd.

goodluck
 
OK, thanks for the tips !

@Richard : I get it, think of it as a bank heist, not a location test shoot ;)

For filmla , it's funny how they don't define when you need a film permit. They do cover still photographers as well, I noticed. Does a guy with a handheld DSLR need a permit to shoot Disney Hall from the sidewalk ? If he uses a tripod should someone call homeland defense ? I'll call them and see what they say.
 
Some of you might find this video enlightening:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FJH9F7Hcluo

Quite a lot of attitude. I do a bit of street still photography myself... the only place I've ever got any 'you can't photograph that!' attitude was... wait for it... the 9/11 Memorial visitors center at Ground Zero.

Yep, some yellow jacket security turds tried to tell a fireman he couldn't photograph the visitors center from a public street...

Mike
 
It's well known in security services that terrorists regularly send out white people with medium format cameras and film crews to secretly film potential targets. :wink5:

In the UK security guards will pretend to be police, they will ask for your ID and they will try to move you on, even from a public space. They have absolutely no right to do so.
However most of the time you are going to be arguing with a sub-intelligent person who is really only doing what he is told. So unless you really need the shot, discretion can often be the better part of valour.
 
Mike 'Fireman' Ross said:
Some of you might find this video enlightening:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FJH9F7Hcluo

Quite a lot of attitude. I do a bit of street still photography myself... the only place I've ever got any 'you can't photograph that!' attitude was... wait for it... the 9/11 Memorial visitors center at Ground Zero.

Yep, some yellow jacket security turds tried to tell a fireman he couldn't photograph the visitors center from a public street...

Mike
Click to expand...

I could only watch half of that video. Some of what those people were doing was just stupid and antagonistic. Seems like some of them wanted to break the law first to get the security guards out there for their little video. I hate overzealous security or police. But its nice to know the law and not just piss in peoples' faces about how you are skating on the very edge of the law.

I've been shooting timelapse in LA, along with some other places, for the past 6 years and I have never gotten a permit to film. All of the footage I shoot in and around the city is stock footage that I sell and make a profit with. I've been hassled by security guards, park rangers and cops but if you know the law then you are good. But you have to talk to them like a person and not just bark the law at them. In LA most of the big buildings have a boarder around them that is marked by plaques on the ground. Stay out of that zone and your good. There's nothing they can do about you filming when you are outside of their little zone...again don't be a dick. Also as far as signs of buildings and stupid stuff like that is concerned. As long as its framed in a way or wide enough that the copyrighted name isn't the focus of the shot then your good.

There are some locations that you just have to take a chance on and at least try to get the shot. Sometimes you can get setup and have your shot rolling while you are discussing the finer points about the security guard's job and how you want to speak to his supervisor. Basically kill time while your shot is rolling. But there are some locations that if you get caught in there's no amount of explaining that is going to save you. Again, its about finding gaps in their security and trying to not look like your doing anything. Just be as ninja as you can be...without looking it of course. This is coming from someone that thinks carrying around a 10' track and setting it up all over the city is low key...so keep that in mind.
 
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