Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Film vs. RED. A real comparison.

Little bit late, but for what it is worth. Everybody seems to be celebrating in here the death of film. It´s not like they are happy to have decent digital cameras at hand but they need to see film dead to be happy. We work with digital every single day. Get to see digital footage from many DP´s but it never really rivals the beauty of film. Not going to argue why film looks better but instead to point that when the time comes and film really dies, let´s pray digital be far better than what´s today because we, as image lovers, are all going to lose. Today all digital cameras, Epics and Alexas included are way behind film. Let´s be honest. Digital is not stopping but at least be honest and assume they just get used more and more because they are cheap and faster, but they don´t look better.
 
Beg to differ, never liked grain. This feels a lot like the digital transition in the music biz. People said digital sound was "cold", and lp's were "warm". That was because they never heard all the high frequencies before. Now film is "warm" and digital is "sharp". That's because people are used to the fuzzy, grainy look of film, and not used to the incredible clarity of digital. I can make my Red material look just like film; shoot through gauze or a heavy promist. But I'd rather do that in post if I want the soft "film look". But I never do it because I like the clarity and depth of Red.

Shouldn't this thread be titled "A reel comparison?"
 
Rodrigo Lizana said:
Little bit late, but for what it is worth. Everybody seems to be celebrating in here the death of film. It´s not like they are happy to have decent digital cameras at hand but they need to see film dead to be happy. We work with digital every single day. Get to see digital footage from many DP´s but it never really rivals the beauty of film. Not going to argue why film looks better but instead to point that when the time comes and film really dies, let´s pray digital be far better than what´s today because we, as image lovers, are all going to lose. Today all digital cameras, Epics and Alexas included are way behind film. Let´s be honest. Digital is not stopping but at least be honest and assume they just get used more and more because they are cheap and faster, but they don´t look better.
Click to expand...

I think anyone who wants there to be LESS CHOICE are being kind of daft. I think choice is a good thing. I also think people are going to feel silly in the future because it's actually going to become more and more apparent that digital is a very different technology than film. Once digital is free from this idea that it has to be like film, it is going to do incredible things. Already we see things like 3d and Jeff Killgore was saying some really interesting things about 120hz (Which I understand they are working on as part of the new 8k standard). Digital is going to incredible places and sooner than people think. Jim Jannard himself was recently even saying that you can't even compare the new dragon sensor to 35mm film and I get the impression that is just around the corner. Imagine what the sensors are going to be like in just 5 years time from now!

At the same time, I just watched a music video shot on a Super8 camera. I was like "WOW". I really love it and it had it's own thing going on, but what does a music video shot on Super8 have in common with something shot on the RED Epic at 5k! Honestly, Different worlds!

It's a shame because if film was left to continue, then it would develop it it's own direction too and that obviously would not be in the direction of 120fps etc. It would be its own thing, and it's possible we will all miss out on that future now.

I just heard that Kodak are discontinuing colour reversal entirely. :(
Diversity is always a good thing (this is why the epic monochrome is such a great idea!).
I never understand when people celebrate or are excited at the thought of less diversity.

Freya
 
Rodrigo Lizana said:
Little bit late, but for what it is worth. Everybody seems to be celebrating in here the death of film. It´s not like they are happy to have decent digital cameras at hand but they need to see film dead to be happy. We work with digital every single day. Get to see digital footage from many DP´s but it never really rivals the beauty of film. Not going to argue why film looks better but instead to point that when the time comes and film really dies, let´s pray digital be far better than what´s today because we, as image lovers, are all going to lose. Today all digital cameras, Epics and Alexas included are way behind film. Let´s be honest. Digital is not stopping but at least be honest and assume they just get used more and more because they are cheap and faster, but they don´t look better.
Click to expand...

In the future will we stop calling them films? The day film is dead will be a sad day indeed, I hope its not in my lifetime. I have adopted digital for economic and modern workflow reasons and cause RED simply works for mem because I can make it look like film... but my brother still shoots all his work on 8mm, 16mm, and later 35mm crank cameras and I dont know a single digital format or post plugin that could improve any one of his films. Making his decision to shoot film vs adding grain and film fx in post is not in the same ballpark, hell its not even the same sport. ;)

As much as I love Digital...I too want to see where film could evolve. The death of film could also be the death of film makers including Quentin Tarantino who says he is out. Food for thought.

Gandalf still kicks ass in either 35mm or EPIC. :P
 
Rodrigo Lizana said:
Little bit late, but for what it is worth. Everybody seems to be celebrating in here the death of film. It´s not like they are happy to have decent digital cameras at hand but they need to see film dead to be happy. We work with digital every single day. Get to see digital footage from many DP´s but it never really rivals the beauty of film. Not going to argue why film looks better but instead to point that when the time comes and film really dies, let´s pray digital be far better than what´s today because we, as image lovers, are all going to lose. Today all digital cameras, Epics and Alexas included are way behind film. Let´s be honest. Digital is not stopping but at least be honest and assume they just get used more and more because they are cheap and faster, but they don´t look better.
Click to expand...

You are absolutely right. As much as I would like it not to be true, as much as I would like to say that the Red, or even Alexa, can match the quality of the film image - it just can't. Not yet. The Red and Alexa look pretty damn good, and you can convince yourself it's the same, better, or "just as good". Until you hit the input button on your monitor and look at Bluray of say True Grit, No Country, Horse Whisperer, even 2001. And then you have to say, "Yeah, we're not there yet." I would prefer better color and roll off to more Ks.
 
Hi Clayton, glad you wrote that. It´s not the same sport. People should be happy to have the access of today´s great digital cameras. That doesn´t mean you need to wish the death of film. If you weren´t able to shot film in your life it doesn´t mean you cannot enjoy it by watching it. You can still shot digital and go to the theaters or get a bluray and be amazed by its lovely magic. Not because I wasn´t able to have a Ferrari I´m going to wish they disappear from earth.

As for Jim statement of Dragon needed to be compared with 65mm, I don´t really get it. First need to get over 35mm and that´s not happening now and I don´t see it happening with the Dragon either. Because it´s not about K´s or DR alone, todays digital cameras have plenty of both. But what about color ?. Isn´t color as important as K´s and DR ?. What about the image feeling alive and organic ?. Films is still far ahead in those areas. I´d be glad if digital gets there and give me images with the "heart beat" of 35mm film for a fraction of the cost. But in the meanwhile I´d be more than happy to have film supplying me these emotions. Even if it has to be shot by someone else and not me.
 
Brant Hadfield said:
Until you hit the input button on your monitor and look at Bluray of say True Grit, No Country, Horse Whisperer, even 2001. And then you have to say, "Yeah, we're not there yet." I would prefer better color and roll off to more Ks.
Click to expand...

Exactly my point !!. It´s not that I don´t wish digital to have success. I really do. But I don´t want film to disappear because of that. Would love to know the reasons why digital is moving forward so fast in DR and K´s and not that much in color. Would love to read about that but it seems everybody is happy being focus in K´s and DR. As for a post above, it´s not just grain what gives life to film. Modern stocks does not have too much grain but they still have the magic in them.
 
Yeah, the color in The Hobbit, SpiderMan, Prometheus, etc just stinks... :001_huh: I am 100% positive if there were two projects, one shot in film and one shot in Red RAW, that 99.9% wouldn't know the difference if someone didn't tell them which was which. The "magic" of film is subjective nostalgia for all that is old school and vintage... MAYBE, one might find some single scene where you say, "aha, that is digital," but for the most part, 99% of the population can't tell. Maybe someone will be willing to do a test and shoot a scene with film and shoot it with the Dragon sensor and see if anyone can tell the difference. I'm not trying to be cynical or smarty, but this feels like much ado about nothing. When I watch the SkyDive Dubai piece (Ketch and Joseph's 10-minute commercial), especially the opening sequences, I think, "Wow that is gorgeous." There is some magic there that film could never touch (mostly because it would be hard to jump off a plane with a 35mm film camera). So keep the magic of film. I'll take all the other benefits of Red. And I'm all for the choice of the artist, I just think the "magic" of film isn't a great argument. Just my two cents.
 
Mind if I simplify the discussion? Digital can now emulate film or offer a clarity that perhaps film isn't capable of. But the simple truth is film is becoming redundant due to its high cost for acquisition and processing. Digital is becoming the new standard because people will still pay to watch movies made with digital and the cost of "filming" digitally is pennies on the dollar in comparison to film. I doubt any of the comic book movies would do any better at the box office if shot on film rather than digitally.
 
Andy Roberts said:
Yeah, the color in The Hobbit, SpiderMan, Prometheus, etc just stinks... :001_huh: I am 100% positive if there were two projects, one shot in film and one shot in Red RAW, that 99.9% wouldn't know the difference if someone didn't tell them which was which.
Click to expand...

I do agree this thread is somehow useless and won´t change things unless camera manufacturers start focusing their efforts in color !. But I certainly does not agree your statement weather people see the difference or not. Maybe they don´t complain if the movie was shot in digital but doesn´t mean they won´t know which one looks better. If you show them side by side film just stands out.

Haven´t seen the Hobbit yet, but Prometheus and Spiderman yes, and Skyfall for that matter, and got to say that color was not great in any of these movies at all. Lifeless, kind of plastic sometimes. Prometheus feels great in resolution but poor in color. Spiderman same thing. Modern film, is nothing about nostalgia or vintage. Is the best image available today by far. Sure not the most economic, or comfortable to work with and certainly not the fastest to put in the editing room but the best image quality. BTW, when I say color was poor is when compared with the color I see with my own eyes and the color which film replicates so well. Of course compared to older digital cameras, the modern ones looks great.
 
Elsie, you are right. None of this movies would have done any better if shot on film. Had I bought the blu-ray of any of this movies I rather have them shot on film. Most of the BR I have were shot on film. Sure I´m not the average customer... But the discussion was, at least from my first post, focused on two things. To not feel happy because of the death of film because it would be the death of a beautiful thing that we, as image creators/lovers, should all miss. And second to point out, that the claim of digital having catch or surpass film by now (or will be in the very near Dragon future) just because it has more DR and K´s I think is really looking in the wrong direction. Again it would be great if digital gets to where film is, just don´t say it´s there when it´s not true. As Brant said, show me a movie that looks as good as No country, Crazy Heart, Tree of Life, The Fighter...hey you can even go 20 year old movies (scanned with today technology) and you´ll see what I´m talking about.
 
Rodrigo, maybe you missed my humor about color. I thought color looked fantastic in those movies I listed (and in the trailer for Hobbit)... color rendition is different between the digital and film but to say that film is unequivocally better is just a subjective personal opinion and preference. But we can agree to disagree about something that really is a moot point.
 
Andy Roberts said:
Maybe someone will be willing to do a test and shoot a scene with film and shoot it with the Dragon sensor and see if anyone can tell the difference.
Click to expand...

I'd like to see that. Film camera loaded with pristine Kodak Vision 3 film stock next to Alexa, next to F65, next to Epic MX, next to Epic Dragon shooting all the same stuff. Rarely the results of such tests are available online, but I'm very curious. Or even better, put Dragon next to Vistavision 35, regular 65mm film camera and IMAX 15/70 super beast. Then right there we could see not only different resolution, latitude and color characteristics, but also differences in frame sizes. I personally can't wait for a medium / large format Dragon sensor to appear some time in the future. I think I understand what Jim is saying about comparing Dragon to 65mil. Sort of "get that epic resolution, filmic DR and 65mm feel without shooting on large sensor with MF/LF lenses". Though, as people mentioned before, part of "that feel" is actually the large frame size and optics. Natural color reproduction is the next important (or equally important) thing after latitude.
 
Amazing figures, and a testament to the fantastic hardware you guys at red have built, Aong with how technology is advancing filmmaking, but worth pointing out if we half the 27 million for 3D then half again for frame rate, it puts Jackson in the same shooting ratio ( Just under 7 million feet actually). for the Hobbit as with the LOTR trilogy.

Unless my simple arithmetic is way off?

just wanted to throw that out there, still pretty amazing, that the notion of 27 million feet of film is even being discussed. and that the cameras and SSD can hold up to that kind of work load.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top