Film Schools

[Darwin]

Asking a student to shoot and edit film to appreciate the masters now after RED is like telling the kid he can't enjoy a Playstation3 until he has mastered Pong and completed all levels of Pacman.

My friend That was hilarious 'well said'

 

[miles]

I know our school would buy it if we only had the funds for it.
Maybe someday ...

 

[Jack Turits]

Maybe you won't use a RED for learning the foundations but anyone shooting their thesis is gonna want to shoot RED. If the school does not have them then students will be forced with there measley budget to go out to a rental house and get one. Schools should be able to support there students with the equipment they want to shoot on. I think RED will be the weapon of choice.

 

[G. Haz]

If the film schools are grading their students on lines of resolution instead of strory telling, direction and composition then the industry in in a lot of trouble.

Saying that film schools need to to use Reds is like saying the drivers education classes should be using Ferrari's.

 

[Júlio Taubkin]

If the film schools are grading their students on lines of resolution instead of strory telling, direction and composition then the industry in in a lot of trouble.

Saying that film schools need to to use Reds is like saying the drivers education classes should be using Ferrari's.

When you are shooting your thesis, and paying lot of your savings to do it, you want a final copy that can compete in the best festivals, looking as good as the more expensive professionally made 35mm shorts and features. It's just that. You can't blame any storyteller to want more technical quality of their work.

BTW, if you want to train a professional pilot how to run at 250 mph, you can't do it in a 1972 volkswagen (no matter how much I like them!).

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

In the not too distant future... Schools will be teaching the process and techniques of film from a historical approach. also have to add that once RED is more established in the industry, schools can't afford to not buy RED cameras. The savings alone over shooting film will be worth it, not to mention it will be a top-end production tool that students will most likely encounter as soon as they leave school.

Asking a student to shoot and edit film to appreciate the masters now after RED is like telling the kid he can't enjoy a Playstation3 until he has mastered Pong and completed all levels of Pacman. Checking the gate?

Hehe. As for the checking the gate, it will now be "is the sensor clean?"

 

[laguun]

For us as employer it is highly problematic, that students don´t learn the modern tools.

After 8 years of HDCAM in the market, dozens of A-Budget Movies on HDCAM and 100s, if not 1000s of episodes of series, i have yet to meet a German student who learned cinealta cameras at the university.

Focusing for 2k, let alone, 4k, that can´t be repeated enough, is nothing you will learn by shooting dv/hdv/s16. Measuring yes, but most folks sadly often focus these cameras optical.

Having raw sensor data in the camera furthermore is a factor students shouldn´t underestimate.

The question is: will the DP will control light/exposure or the "digital lab".
I want the DP/1st AC do it.
However, if the students don´t learn this but only DV/16/35, i can see -many- productions going the road to shoot "boring" in order to set this in post.

Therefore i sincerely hope that film schools will not miss, another time, the chance to provide their pupils education which employers and employees need.

Having said this - i didn´t interrupt one of the most important, 60 years old, professors for camera in Germany, when he, in a lengthy way, explained this April 2007, why it is technically impossible to build the Red camera. In front of an auditorium. After CTL at NAB. In front of 100s of other professional educators. There are many teachers who will need to learn many new things. Sadly, this probably will take years.

 

[Jack Turits]

If the film schools are grading their students on lines of resolution instead of strory telling, direction and composition then the industry in in a lot of trouble.

Saying that film schools need to to use Reds is like saying the drivers education classes should be using Ferrari's.

Ferrari's cost a lot for a high quality machine. RED costs little for a high quality machine.

 

[Matt Setnes]

Drivers Ed does not follow the same concept as the Ferrari. Drivers Ed is about safety and rules of the road, not driving fast as you can
I think that if a school doesn't look at opportunities like these for their students they are being careless on their education and what they will need to know in the future.

 

[Andrew Kimery]

I think that if a school doesn't look at opportunities like these for their students they are being careless on their education and what they will need to know in the future.

Schools that put too much weight on technology and too little on actually teaching their students in the art and craft of storytelling in a visual and aural medium are being careless w/their students' education. Of course technology has a role to play, but when every other person has FCP and an HD camera the technological advantage becomes moot and it goes back to quality of work over quantity of technology. :wink:

A guy I went to school w/got job offers from Dateline NBC w/a package he shot on an old S-VHS camera.


-A

 

[Matt Setnes]

I meant from a school's perspective, not the teacher. The teachers supply the knowledge, the school supplies the technology. It just seems they both should be balanced in my opinion.

 

[Craig Ryan]

As a Jr. College student currently, all I can say is I'll be disappointed if I don't get to use a RED while I attend a film school within the next 2 years. There are plenty of reasons, which have all been mentioned so far, that show how RED is something all film schools should be adopting.

First of all, I agree that above all, students need to learn and respect the history of film as an art, and to focus on STORYTELLING above all. We all agree that if your film looks/sounds great but sucks nobody will want to see it. If you have a good story...but the quality is low, people are much more forgiving...I'm sure we've all seen things on youtube and have been sucked into the story/content even though we're staring at horrible compression artifacts. With this in mind, we all know that cameras like the DVX, HV20, or what have you, are all great tools for learning the craft of storytelling.

Aside from that though, another point is that students should be ready to dive into the professional world once they graduate, and should know most of the technicalities of the process. This is where many argue that cameras like the DVX aren't as capable as teaching students about things like lenses, film stock, exposure, how to use a light meter..."check the gate", all the other things that go along with a professional film production. It seems logical that the best solution today is for students to learn BOTH film and digital processes so that they not only know the technicalities of both, but can use every asset of the professional world to tell their story better. And I'm not excluding other digital formats like HDCAM, which I'm sure will be around a while even with RED.

This is where RED comes in perfectly; simply put it’s the best of both worlds right now. Out of all the digital formats, it comes the closest to looking/feeling like film, and with the capability of shooting RAW ONBOARD, it offers total flexibility in post. On top of that, it takes advantage of time and money savings associated with a pure digital workflow (no film costs, dailies, or telecine costs). It's also an all manual camera, which means students would get hands on experience learning all the critical aspects of shooting like being a focus puller, all the way to being a DIT. Of course most of these things can be learned on cameras like the CineAlta, but Red is much cheaper, and superior in its abilities, and again offers RAW recording. Students should also have experience on other HD formats like HDCAM too, but RED will soon be widely available, and students should know its workflow. It's only logcial for film schools to take advantage of RED right now; it’s beneficial for the schools and for the student's professional careers when they graduate.

Sorry for the long post, but it's something I've given a lot of thought to as I will be shelling out the big bucks next year when I head off to film school, so I'm very much interested in this subject.

 

[Robert Mott]

I know of a school on the east coast that is getting one.

RKM

 

[Craig Bowman]

The Centre for Arts and Technology in Kelowna has reservation #681 and its on the map.

I got them to make the reservation last October when I filled in for a while as dept. head.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

What the hell is wrong with them? Any school not jumping on the RED wagon will be left in the dust.

Hahahaha. Obviously you never went to a film school. :biggrin:

 

[J.D.]

Hello.
I am a college prof in the midwest. I teach at a small liberal arts college where we offer a degree in Cinema. This is my first post, even though I have been here many, many times. I learned about the red it seems several yrs ago on DVX user and since then I cannot tell you how badly I want a Red camera.
However, for my school it boils down to stretching a thin budget and doing what's best for the most students. For example this year I could have purchased another HVX for our dept, but instead I bought 2 more DVX's.

So we do what we can. I focus on teaching our students to become good storytellers, on the page and visually with a camera and editing.
So we don't use the best cameras in the world..(the Red) but it's not for a lack of interest or belief in the red.

On another note... Thanks to all on this web site that share their wealth of professional knowledge its a great help to those like myself that aren't out in the trenches shooting everyday. I have learned a lot from you, and I pass it on to my students. And I encourage them to visit this site and DVX User.

JD

 

[Neil Duffy]

I wouldn't mind taking a two week intensive course on shooting with the RED at a film school. The whole concept of shooting in RAW - and digital - and 4K - has to alter the whole story telling process. Things will be possible (both technically and financially) that were not before. For instance, giving the look to the whole film in post, rather than selecting it on site. Not changing film rolls. And the supremely minor issue of not having $100,000 of your $150,000 indie budget taken up by film costs.
Neil

 

[GlennChan]

Some random observations:
A- Film schools can have a weird hodgepodge of equipment. They get a lot of things for cheap/free. Sometimes these may be somewhat defective products (even seen ND filters or broadcast monitors with color casts in them?) or models that didn't sell well.
Weird stuff happens from student abuse, funding, politics, and the (in)experience of the staff.

Their equipment will not compare to higher-end shoots. e.g. no generator. You probably won't learn that aspect of production and things like electrical safety for that type of equipment (e.g. what T caps are... what color is neutral... what order you should plug stuff in).

B- One very important skill is how well you work with others and how you deal with people (co-workers or clients). Unfortunately film schools don't really teach you this and will hinder you somewhat if they make you cocky. When you graduate, you actually don't know that much and have little relevant experience (the film/video industry has lots of niches, each with their own needs and workflows).

C- You can go to film school and not know what each job in the credits is. e.g. Inferno, 3-D rigging, online editing

Technology-wise, they can't teach you things that don't exist or aren't viable yet (e.g. 3-D, Lightstage, etc.). e.g. you would never have been able to learn non-linear editing before it existed.

They can't and don't teach you everything.

D- Having professors who have worked professionally in the past few years makes a big difference. Otherwise you are learning outdated and impractical/irrelevant practices out of a textbook.

E- Most schools will claim that the professors have professional experience and that their gear is top-notch. The first can be true, though you should check what areas they work in. The second is usually not true... usually it only looks the part.

F- If you're cash-strapped, you're likely better off PAing (or working an entry-level job) and working your way up. You'll break into the industry faster and make money while doing so (instead of paying tuition and spending money on your own films). And you'll know if you like that particular aspect of the film/video industry (e.g. long hours suck). School doesn't give you a real taste of that.

 

[Jack Turits]

Why are so many people looking at film students using RED's as a negative? It can only be positive IMO. Maybe it is because I am a student.

 

[Benjamin Epps]

I am shooting my thesis project at the American Film Institute in a month.

I have been wrestling with my faculty since July just to get permission to use the RED that my company is purchasing!

There are two reasons for this:

1) Workflow - Film schools try to minimize the headache of having multiple workflows. They want it to work over and over again. So, once they figure out how to get 100 films made in a year. That's it. The system is locked. Even if it is not a completely logical system, if it generally functions, that's the way they want to operate.

So, when I bring up the RED they have a heart attack. They are interested in the technology, but don't want it in their house until the performance is proven and the workflow is rock solid. Because they know that if I can make it work, everyone else will want to jump on board. And the REDvolution will just mean more headaches for them in the short run, even though in the long run the quality of production will rise and cost will fall.

2) Story - AFI really only cares about story, which is a good thing. So, they don't want the students stressing over the technical aspects so much that they forget to plan their creative attack of the narrative. Of course, we need to learn little by little how to handle the technical aspects of making movies, but technique always follows story, it never leads it.

All that being said, I hope that we get to shoot on the RED, because I know that we will have a far superior product compared to using the school's F900 cameras.

Here's to hoping. And here's to the REDvolution at AFI!