FCS vs. CS4 Workflow

[Yousuf Abbasi]

I've been working with R3D footage using both a FCS path and CS4 path. What I found is that CS4 has made the R3D workflow very intuitive, and integration of R3D projects between PP, AE, Encore, etc very seamless. There's really no working with proxies or transcoded files, like in FCP. All in all, it's a very natural workflow.

What I'm wondering is, for the people that are familiar with both the Apple and Adobe workflows, what are main reasons you chose to work primarily with the Apple workflow? I understand color 1.5 now supports 4K, and nothing in the CS4 suite is dedicated for grading... but is that the main reason people are using FCS workflow over the CS4?

BTW I haven't approached either workflow on an expert level.

 

[Kaku Ito]

Hello,

I've been working with both and I usually work with FCP workflow with Clipfinder/Monkey Extract then DPX sent to Da Vinci.

CS4 is great but not stable on Mac, lacks stable hardware monitoring environment at this moment. I heard from Simon Hayhurst/Adobe that it will be stable with 4.11, so I'm looking forward to it. If that is cleared and if I get used to using Premiere Pro again (we all were used to before) then Adobe route might be good. You can even do some work and send the XML to Color even.

Another point is that although Adobe had covered the R3D support from ground up, the tools like Clipfinder works somewhat better with FCP environment. If Hans comes out with some functions that covers Adobe workflow, then I'd be using Premiere Pro more often (maybe I'm lazy to think how to adopt it in CS4, so if there's any good idea, please post). The advantages of Clipfinder are: being able to read the footage and evaluate, mark, annotate and set RSX on the fly. Then throw in the clips I need to FCP and start editing. Doing that in Premiere Pro is little harder.

 

[ScottyC]

Hi,

I would think the answer depends on the person.

Stepping back to Adobe Premiere after using Final Cut Pro for so long might take a bit of getting used to, but I am impressed with Adobe for stepping up to try and make their program handle the RED footage natively. Being able to work on the files without converting/rendering them before editing makes RED footage just THAT much better than shooting regular HD with digital storage. Didn't know about the stability issues with Adobe in Macs... but I expect they will be diligent in releasing a fix/patch. Adobe's After Effects program is a very powerful program that can make a big difference to your production's value if you know how to use it. I recently saw this link in the reduser posts that shows you how you can color grade in Adobe After Effects (http://library.creativecow.net/arti...iant-blockbuster-film-look/video-tutorial.php)... but you need to purchase the software suite from Red Giant ($800.00 US). It appears that the software suite from Red Giant can be used inside of After Effects or can act as a stand alone color-grader, which seems like it could be well worth the price. Even I am considering this route.

One the other hand, Apple has greatly disappointed me lately. I was a huge fan and believer in what they were doing... like RED, they were taking technological innovation and creativity and pushing the limits and providing some wonderful products. Lately, however, their progress has slowed to a near stop IMO. Their release of the new FCS3 doesn't seem worth the money. I have FCS2 and the only thing I was interested in from FCS3 was the addition of a few new rendering codecs and the updated Color that can handle 4k. They didn't even release better compatibility with RED footage in the new suite. On a side note, the new iPhone 3Gs is disappointing, as well as some other products in the mix. Quite honestly, I am sadly disappointed with Apple. I have a bad feeling that maybe this all has something to do with Steve Jobs being out of the picture for a few months. I hear he is back now, so maybe things will get back on track. Regardless, Apple FCS is a solid program that many people use... both professional, independent, and amateur.

To sum this up, I continue to use FCS as this is what I am familiar with and already have. However, I am seriously considering moving to Adobe CS4 because they are working towards amazing innovations that make the workflow much better. If Apple doesn't step up soon, I might have to jump ship.

 

[Yousuf Abbasi]

One the other hand, Apple has greatly disappointed me lately. I was a huge fan and believer in what they were doing... like RED, they were taking technological innovation and creativity and pushing the limits and providing some wonderful products. Lately, however, their progress has slowed to a near stop IMO. Their release of the new FCS3 doesn't seem worth the money. I have FCS2 and the only thing I was interested in from FCS3 was the addition of a few new rendering codecs and the updated Color that can handle 4k. They didn't even release better compatibility with RED footage in the new suite. On a side note, the new iPhone 3Gs is disappointing, as well as some other products in the mix. Quite honestly, I am sadly disappointed with Apple. I have a bad feeling that maybe this all has something to do with Steve Jobs being out of the picture for a few months. I hear he is back now, so maybe things will get back on track. Regardless, Apple FCS is a solid program that many people use... both professional, independent, and amateur.

You know, I've been feeling the same way. I know recently, the biggest consumer fad is to have a Mac, an iPod, or an iPhone. Being an Apple user from a while ago, I've always felt Apple did a great job of making a quality product and catering to the professional crowd. However, recently not only has Apple seemingly made the professional crowd a second priority, but their products in general are not as high quality as they used to be, in my opinion. I too was really dissapointed with the iPhone 3G's, I had to sell it and switch to BlackBerry just to get reliable email! Their slow progress with FCS particularly with RED technology has been pretty unfortunate too, seeing as how Adobe is really doing a great job there. I'm hoping this isn't a trend but unfortunately, it may be that Apple now has different priorities that it used to... I don't know? Of course they still make great products, no doubt there, but something is just not the same.

 

[Dominic Cochran]

Let me tell you, from an all Avid shop that would have literally lol'd at using Premiere as recently as a few months ago, that working with RED footage in Adobe products on Mac is as solid and as easy as it gets. Avid and Apple are so far behind on this it's silly.

 

[Michael Romano]

The one thing really holding us back from Adobe, and I mean one thing, is it's inability to play nice with our Kona card at 23.976. Been around the bush with no answers of any value from both Aja and Adobe. I totally agree with ScottyC, Apple is selling way to many iPhones and it feels like the Pro crowd is getting edged out as a result. FCS3 feels like the nail in the coffin. Keep it coming Adobe, we're watching you!

 

[Kaku Ito]

Missing Steve Jobs as a real leader really changed Apple.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Wasn't aware of the Kona card issue with Adobe... Good to know.

Other than that, the Adobe workflow, especially for RED, runs circles around what Apple is doing. IMO, the weakest link in the Adobe pipeline is color grading. Color Finesse is OK, but it's not on the same level as Color... Close, but not quite. Still good enough for everything I do in-house. If I need more, I'll be taking it to a post house with a good colorist anyway.

...Now if Adobe could update the RED support to incorporate the new color science, that would be wonderful! Apple still needs to do this too, it's not there in the FCS3 installer.

 

[ScottyC]

Wasn't aware of the Kona card issue with Adobe... Good to know.

Other than that, the Adobe workflow, especially for RED, runs circles around what Apple is doing. IMO, the weakest link in the Adobe pipeline is color grading. Color Finesse is OK, but it's not on the same level as Color... Close, but not quite. Still good enough for everything I do in-house. If I need more, I'll be taking it to a post house with a good colorist anyway.

...Now if Adobe could update the RED support to incorporate the new color science, that would be wonderful! Apple still needs to do this too, it's not there in the FCS3 installer.

Now if Adobe puts a great color grading program out in CS5 (or whatever they call their next software release) that can handle/incorporate the RED color science and beat out Apple's color program... I think I might make the switch anyway. It's really weird that the AJA Kona card has that blip when used with CS4. I wonder if Adobe will work with AJA to fix this soon... it would definitely be in their best interest to do so. I guess time will tell. I patiently await the release of RED Scarlet in the mean time! :coolgleamA:

 

[Kaku Ito]

When I interviewed Simon Hayhurst last month, I asked about Adobe adopting color grading application, then he mentioned that Adobe is not really interested in that but does have all of the resources to do so. So, I assumed that Adobe would provide the grading environment using the resources (from Photoshop and After Effects, even Premiere Pro), come out with the solution (new window? function or mode in Premiere Pro?).

Also, he mentioned that the robust support in third party hardware is coming when new version releases.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Adobe is doing some great things and made a nice leap there with version 4.1. I will have to echo the need for tight integration with Kona cards (my Kona 3 is a workhorse and is flawless with FCP) and the need for more stability on the Mac side.

Also, I am working on trying to embrace the UI and some differences between the apps. Just like when I moved from Avid to FCP many moons ago, there is a transitional period where the new app seems awkward and somewhat foreign. It essentially does the same things, but not always in the same way, and if you are a creature of habit this can take some time to get accustomed to.

As to color correction, it would be nice if there was a seamless integration with Premiere and Apple Color. Perhaps a Send to Color menu item right inside Premiere. I know Adobe is trying to play nice with Apple, but I have no idea if it's being reciprocated.

 

[Mark Crabtree]

Adobe color correction

Adobe color correction

We use CineForm and Premiere. With color finesse we make a 3d lut and apply it to meta data on the clip. The meta data allows the cpu to control all aspects of grading, black level, gammas, white ballance, gain and much more all in real time playback. That means you don't have to do long renders to color grade, you just set it and apply it and instantly the entire clip or an entire bin of clips will play back with the applied color grade. Even sophisticated grading programs like speed grade can use this process for the fastest color grading possible. We will never go back to rendering out our color grades.

 

[Michael Romano]

Good to hear Adobe is on the issue with hardware. I agree - a coloring application would be wonderful in the next CS suite. Maybe a modified version of the underlying core in AEFX, specifically designed for colorists - Pure conjecture, but that might not be hard to do. Either way, FCP needs to step up or step aside. Problem is, if everyone buys the Adobe suite instead of FCP, Apple doesn't have a reason to continue its pro line hardware when iPhones make so much cash. See Shake for questions on that philosophy!

 

[Neil Larson]

Oh man, the last project I had I decided to "try" out the Adobe RED workflow and let me tell you, it was way easier than FCP right now. I was so hoping the FCP update would have changed that but it didn't. Bummer.

 

[Jeff Dunant]

My only complaint right now is that support for build 20 on CS4 still does not exist...

I have a shoot next weekend and now it seems like I will not be able to start editing straight away if I want to take advantage of the new color science.

 

[ScottyC]

As to color correction, it would be nice if there was a seamless integration with Premiere and Apple Color. Perhaps a Send to Color menu item right inside Premiere. I know Adobe is trying to play nice with Apple, but I have no idea if it's being reciprocated.

I thought about this too... but the big problem is that Apple will release software that is compatible with it's own software so that it generates more revenue instead of "outsourcing" that revenue to other software developers. That, and each time they build a new version of the software, they would have to spend countless hours coordinating the changes with the other developers... and then more hours when it comes time to release fixes and patches to holes in the software (This doesn't apply to OS development because it is more beneficial to be as compatible as possible).

If they had a smaller professional client base, I am sure they would spend the time doing it... but they have a large customer base and would rather do whatever is most monetarily beneficial to them.

I hope RED doesn't fall in this trap... but I think Jarred and Crew are smarter than that. :grouphug:

 

[Kujtim Ereqi]

It would be a good idea, if Adobe supports the development of Color Finesse, which already comes for free with After Effects. Color Finesse is good and I always use it, but it needs some improvements. If Adpbe does that, I think that will change the whole game, since Premiere, with the support of other family members, has made great steps toward professional market. Let's hope Adobe will make such a nice move.

 

[LarryMcPhereson]

All I can say is OMG, YUCK! I've been very unhappy with my FC "PRO" software (especially for web output) and very envious of the CS 4 guys and was about to buy the package when I found out about THE CS4 LICENSE TIMING OUT ISSUE! PRETTY DAMN HUGE AND THIS IS A QUOTE FROM ADOBE STAFF WHICH LEAVES A LOT TO BE DESIRED, OPENS NEW QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE PAYING FOR. PLEASE COMMENT GUYS...

In our next version, the design of the license expiry workflow has been altered to effectively tackle all the issues in CS4 handling of license expiry.

In our next version, when the product is launched the check for license expiry is performed. If the serial number associated with the license has expired, the user would not be displayed a hard-stop alert as was done in CS4. Instead, the module responsible for licensing of the product would bring up a user interface. This license expiry user interface screen would

Inform the user that the license in use has expired with an error message.
Additionally, it would provide an option to the user to enter a new serial number to renew his expired license.
This is like a 'bonus launch' of the product as the product is giving a bonus opportunity to the user to renew his expired license by entering a new serial number. This eliminates the need for previously used workarounds, to bring up the user interface (serialization screen) for entering an alternative serial number in case of license expiry.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I own both the CS4 production bundle on Windows and FCS3. There are 2 major flaws which prevent me to use Premier Pro.

1. Premier Pro does not export a meaningful EDL of R3Ds. A001_C001 becomes A001_C00 while FCP and AVID trasfer the R3D REEL into A001C001 You need the last digit of the original REEL to define the REEL Number but no one needs the "_". I wonder how PP user export their projects.

2. Premier Pro cannot read TC out of sound files. TC syncing is not possible.

These two missing functions show why Premier Pro is not yet an industry workhorse.


There are advertises functions that don't work or don't even exist:

No VST support.

Cannot read FCP XML timelines unless you clean up the timeline from things like slug, etc...

Bottom line: I had very high hopes on CS4 when I bought it and we only use AE now.

Hans

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

It's not a big deal, Larry. The current Adobe licensing system is so full of bugs that they're trying to come up with solutions, even if it means issuing new serial numbers to customers. The license itself never truly expires when you buy the full version or upgrade a full version of the product.

I really wish they would fix the current multi-user licensing bug on OSX. CS3 and CS4 will lock themselves if different users on the same system attempt to use the applications simultaneously! It's a real bitch when the wife has a dozen browser windows open and one of them has opened Acrobat to deal with a PDF file. I don't know it because the monitors have long since gone to sleep, so I wiggle the mouse, sign onto my account and load Photoshop. Smack. Denied. Gotta switch users and hunt down the Adobe app that's open... switch back to my account and try again.

Adobe's licensing sucks, it's a real hassle. And it has done nothing but inconvenience their legitimate users. Their "protection" is so easy to crack that every warez kid out there has the latest version of Photoshop and Premiere the same day Adobe releases it.

Have to agree with Hans too. Premiere is lacking a couple key features that keep it from taking over the industry. As far as an editor though... It kicks ass. It mops the floor with FCP.