Fan Noise

[Robert Hart]

Barrel or cylindrical fans AKA Torrington blowers have been a workable noise versus air volume solution for years. I just had a look on the internet. They still exist and remain in business unless their web address is now a zombie.

http://www.bergquistcompany.com/thermal_fans/index.htm

http://www.bergquistcompany.com/fans-blowers/application_case_histories.php

Red R&D guys. These people may be able to help if you have not arrived at a solution yet. I would install such a fan as an extractor on top of the camera where the existing aftermarket alternative is placed. I realise this is going to muck up a lot of the module and accessory placement, so this may not be for every arrangement of the system. My personal preference would be to use the overhead extraction fan as the primary generator of airflow, relegate the front fan to an emergency duty cycle.

I would also modify the heatsink and airduct with extra conductive bridgework to the outer case so that there is also additional passive transfer of heat to the case itself, maybe a passthrough to some fins on the outside if there is available internal workspace to achieve this.

( Tongue-in-cheek hint. - Send me an empty or damaged camera case with existing air duct for me to have a roam around inside of. )

 

[Rob Castiglione]

I would say that the fan noise is a problem but not one that should be overstated. I personally have never found a situation where it was insuperable or where I could not find a solution. Overall, I accept that making the camera this small and designed to make such high quality images is worth the occasional hassle.

 

[Robert Hart]

There was a time when strolling in, buttoning on a H16 Bolex camera among a bunch of CP16s and a solo Eclair at a doorstop interview would have got you shot. There was a time when the clatter of even a blimped 35mm film camera in a confined space could be heard in the sound track of feature films. Hearing the sound of film camera movements was not unusual in TV interviews and documentaries. I think I would prefer to filter out a fan whine rather than a film camera movement any time. That is not to advocate against aspiring to better things which will come in the fullness of time. All things are relative I guess.

I think we would have been in pigheaven if these cameras had been around at competitive prices when we were playing around with JVC GY-HD100s Sony Z1s, groundglass adaptors and those dreadful firewire data cables that kept burning out the motherboards on editing computers or the camera ports themselves.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

The F65 is tolerable...

Great.

If so, the Epic shouldn't cause you any trouble. ;-)

http://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/topic/14367-audio-noise-of-the-cameras/

See you at JWSound!

Pat

 

[Max M.]

Apple had these strange shaped blades in the fan right to help reduce noise? Fan noise is a BIG issue and should be adressed asap

 

[Elsie N]

Seems like an acoustical material to isolate the fan noise could be a one-off work-around for the occasional need to work close... or more likely a cooling pak to do away with the need for the fan to even come on.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Apple had these strange shaped blades in the fan right to help reduce noise? Fan noise is a BIG issue and should be adressed asap

Yes. According to the marketing material for their new lines of laptops. Check it out. Watch the launch event video for the new laptops. I'll look for it so I can provide a link. I believe it is both the shape and orientation of the blades.

Fan noise is real but it's completely manageable, you just have to know your tools. I honestly don't see the big deal if you are knowledgable and prepared... or have a 1st AC who is. ;-)

Edit: Watch the Jony Ive video @ 3:40 http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/#macbookpro
The blades are asymmetrically spaced around the hub.

 

[Marc Wielage]

There was a time when strolling in, buttoning on a H16 Bolex camera among a bunch of CP16s and a solo Eclair at a doorstop interview would have got you shot. There was a time when the clatter of even a blimped 35mm film camera in a confined space could be heard in the sound track of feature films.

That's, true, particularly the mechanical noise of 35mm film cameras. I've been on shoots before (particularly with Movicam bodies) where we had enough mechanical noise that it was concern when the camera got less than 6' away from the actors, for closeups. The good thing about pulldown-claw/shutter noise is that that's pretty easy filtered out, and sound mixers are aware of the techniques available to minimize that kind of noise.

Fan noise, such as the one in the Red Epic, is more broadband, and it tends to get right in the middle of human speech. It's not nearly as easy to filter out. It can be done to a point, but it's not nearly as good to start with poor sound to begin with and have to work in order to make it barely acceptable; it's better to start with "OK" sound and make it good. Poor sound will never be good sound, not with lots of fan noise.

As I've said before, the Red R&D people have proved time and again that they're very bright and have forged ahead, making many performance breakthroughs in the past few years. I'm positive they can solve the fan noise problem when they have the time and the interest.

 

[Max M.]

As I've said before, the Red R&D people have proved time and again that they're very bright and have forged ahead, making many performance breakthroughs in the past few years. I'm positive they can solve the fan noise problem when they have the time and the interest.

exactly that, but i dont have a feeling the really have interest in it, otherwise it wouldn't have been so loud in the first place and if they really care they would have found a solution in the last 18 months...i hope it moves up there priority list

 

[Mike P.]

The fan noise bothers me even when it doesn't blow a take/interview. I have yet to be on a job where the sound guy hasn't commented and I even mention it beforehand (I guess they assume its like the R1). It's not that it can't be dealt with, it's that it shouldn't have to be dealth with. Trying to rationalize it by saying ancient film tech (that is no longer relevent) was loud too, is as ridiculous as it is retarded... Fact of the matter is, it's a stupid problem to have. Being that RED haven't really acknowledged it, I doubt they're going to address it this hardware generation. We'll likely have to wait for whenever the next brain comes out (not just sensor upgrade)... That is, unless someone finds a silent fan/grill replacement. Kind of reminds me of how Apple just ignores a problem knowing their new replacement products are launching in 6 months.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Cameras have always made noise. Sound people have always had some kind of camera noise to deal with. It's a relevant point. What is stupid is to cry and rail on about it as if it were some new and impossible thing instead of learning to properly manage it. Epic and Scarlet are professional tools with professional specs and those specs include operational noise. Learn to operate it like a professional. A Pro finds solutions and prepares them in advance.

At 1" above the heat sink, my Scarlet measures less than 60db up to 40% fan output. That is library quiet folks. At 41% it reads 61db at 1" above the heat sink. It is perfectly feasible under normal operating conditions to run non-stop at 35% fan and lower still for normal shooting. If you need to run higher, chances are it is either unusually hot on your set, or something is wrong with your Red. (If your microphone is 1" from your camera, something is wrong with either your sound person or you.)

I would love to know what similar readings on the most popular Panaflex and Arriflex cameras currently in use are. Anybody?

The fan noise bothers me even when it doesn't blow a take/interview. I have yet to be on a job where the sound guy hasn't commented and I even mention it beforehand (I guess they assume its like the R1). It's not that it can't be dealt with, it's that it shouldn't have to be dealth with. Trying to rationalize it by saying ancient film tech (that is no longer relevent) was loud too, is as ridiculous as it is retarded... Fact of the matter is, it's a stupid problem to have. Being that RED haven't really acknowledged it, I doubt they're going to address it this hardware generation. We'll likely have to wait for whenever the next brain comes out (not just sensor upgrade)... That is, unless someone finds a silent fan/grill replacement. Kind of reminds me of how Apple just ignores a problem knowing their new replacement products are launching in 6 months.

 

[Mike P.]

I'm saying that we shouldn't have to deal with this... it shouldn't need a discussion. Again, workarounds and comparisons to old/other tech are fine for backwards rationalizations, but the fact of the matter is it should be moot. It's not a new problem; it has existed for so damn long because of the physical mechanics of capturing film; we don't have nearly as many moving parts as before (during operation), yet the camera is still loud? There's no reason for it, professional or not. You're getting a technological weakness confused with moviemaking/sound capturing techniques and using professionalism as an excuse for dealing with a peice of tech that is louder than it should/could be. That's the kind of backwards rationale I'm talking about.

Let me put it to you another way: if RED offered an official cooling solution that made substantially less noise, would you be inclined get it or would you continue to 'operate the camera like a professional to properly manage' the noise issues you currently workaround? Because the picture you just painted (intentional or not) is that you'd be 'more professional' working around a loud camera because that's what all 'professional spec tools/cameras' have been to this point. What the hell kind of logic is that? You're also saying we should ignore the issue, because to mention it is 'crying and railing on about' a problem (that could be fixed mind you), instead of merely managing via professionalism? I don't think so.

The reason I find it particularly bothersome with Epic/Scarlet is because a.) it's the camera I own and have to deal with (professionally, no less), b.) because it's predecessor released 4-5 years ago was comparatively silent, and c.) the solution to the problem is fairly straightforward (better airflow, quieter fan, better heat management, all of which can probably be had for the same price). The bylines of 'it's 4k/5k processing in a small box' and 'other cameras are loud too' shouldn't need to be factored in; it's currently not ideal and could probably be rectified, so what's the problem with pointing out the issue?

 

[Scott Crawley]

I'm saying that we shouldn't have to deal with this... it shouldn't need a discussion. Again, workarounds and comparisons to old/other tech are fine for backwards rationalizations, but the fact of the matter is it should be moot. It's not a new problem; it has existed for so damn long because of the physical mechanics of capturing film; we don't have nearly as many moving parts as before (during operation), yet the camera is still loud? There's no reason for it, professional or not. You're getting a technological weakness confused with a moviemaking/sound capturing techniques and using professionalism as an excuse for dealing with a peice of tech that is louder than it should/could be. That's the kind of backwards rationale I'm talking about.

Let me put it to you another way: if RED offered an official cooling solution that made substantially less noise, would you be inclined get it or would you continue to 'operate the camera like a professional to properly manage' the noise issues you currently workaround? Because the picture you just painted (intentional or not) is that you'd be 'more professional' working around a loud camera because that's what all 'professional spec tools/cameras' have been to this point. What the hell kind of logic is that? So you're saying we should ignore the issue, because to mention it is 'crying and rail on' a problem (that could be fixed), instead of merely managing via professionalism? I don't think so.

The reason I find it particularly bothersome with Epic/Scarlet because a.) it's the camera I own and have to deal with (professionally, no less), b.) because it's predecessor released 4-5 years ago was comparatively silent, and c.) the solution to the problem is fairly straightforward (better airflow, quieter fan, better heat management, all of which can probably be had for the same price). The bylines of 'it's 4k/5k processing in a small box' and 'other cameras are loud too' shouldn't need to be factored in; it's currently not ideal and could probably be rectified, so what's the problem with pointing out the issue?

I get it. I do. There is nothing wrong with asking for better performance. However you do not have to deal with this. If it is a poor fit for you, choose something else. I would suggest the Red One MX... It is bigger though. That is the trade off. Bigger heat sink can = less cooling noise. If that is unpalatable, perhaps you would be willing to trade some of that sweet resolution for lower noise instead. More resolution apparently means more heat. It MUST be factored in... some shit called Physics or something... those laws still apply. Sure the tech is different, but the limitations as it turns out, are similar.

If you made an educated decision when you chose Epic or Scarlet, then you would have weighed picture:size:noise and should be prepared to deal with it. Would-be owners are wise to consider it, but it need not be over stated. Some of the previous remarks in this thread cross the line of reason IMHO. It is a competitively designed system which is completely at home on a professional set.

 

[Stuart McQuade]

I worked with a focus puller a couple of weeks ago who altered the fan settings during our lunch break. That way, it could make as much noise as it wanted and cool down during the filming break. Admittedly, this was in a 'room temperature' studio, though...

 

[Tom Gleeson]

Stuart,

What would be helpful is a mode where the camera is either off or in a sleep mode but the fan is on like many modern cars. Short production breaks could be used for cooling the camera. I live in a hot country and let me tell you the fan noise while manageable is a pain in the ass.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Stuart,

What would be helpful is a mode where the camera is either off or in a sleep mode but the fan is on like many modern cars.

I love that idea.

Not long ago a number of us expressed to Jarred our desire for Red to work on energy efficiency. He seemed to take it to heart. This seems like just the sort of thing that would come out of these two pressures for better power and heat management. I don't know about you all, but I am hopeful.

 

[Mark Phelan]

I dare say I probably have recorded one of the longest continuous shoots with an Epic and R1 side by side during the funeral of Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth back in October of last year. The funeral lasted well over six hours and we filmed it from before it began until after it ended. When an SSD would fill up, I'd eject it and rotate in another. Kept this going between both cameras the entire day. And not once, did I have a fan issue. So it CAN be done and has been done. Not to be a naysayer about the fan noise, I will agree, it would be great to have it never be an issue in all types of shooting setups.

 

[Marc Wielage]

At 1" above the heat sink, my Scarlet measures less than 60db up to 40% fan output. That is library quiet folks. At 41% it reads 61db at 1" above the heat sink.

No, it is not "library quiet." Measure some other cameras and get back to me. And tell me what kind of dB meter and environment you're using for the measurement. I can give you actual noise samples of Epic and Scarlet noise on set, compared to other cameras, and they are significantly louder (at least twice as noisy).

I worked with a focus puller a couple of weeks ago who altered the fan settings during our lunch break. That way, it could make as much noise as it wanted and cool down during the filming break. Admittedly, this was in a 'room temperature' studio, though...

One flaw with this method is when the camera fan is on high, it makes it impossible for sound mixers to anticipate dialogue levels during rehearsals. Once the take actually starts, the fan noise drops to a much lower level, which throws us off in terms of balance and levels.

It is frustrating, given that the Red One was not quite this bad on terms of mechanical noise.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

No, it is not "library quiet." Measure some other cameras and get back to me. And tell me what kind of dB meter and environment you're using for the measurement. I can give you actual noise samples of Epic and Scarlet noise on set, compared to other cameras, and they are significantly louder (at least twice as noisy).

Marc,

You know that this depend on how you preset your camera, therefore I don't understand why you make this statement.

Below some comparison between cameras.
You can see that the Epic set properly is performing fairly good, and much better than the F65 that you considered as ok.

See you at JWSound!

(Test conducted @ 30cm from the shutter plane, front towards the optic (with optic) and lateral towards the operator side of the camera.)

Patrick

 

[Scott Crawley]

No, it is not "library quiet." Measure some other cameras and get back to me. And tell me what kind of dB meter and environment you're using for the measurement. I can give you actual noise samples of Epic and Scarlet noise on set, compared to other cameras, and they are significantly louder (at least twice as noisy).

I guess that all depends upon whether or not people are allowed to talk in your library. The vast majority of scales I have ever seen describe normal conversation or quiet conversation volume as ~60db.

I requested measurements from other cameras so we could compare real numbers, so I don't understand why you are being such a wise ass about it. I know Epic and Scarlet are more noisy than some from personal experience. If you claim 2x as loud, show me the data and that will be cool with me. Until then chill the fuck out.