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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Expectations...

Jim did hype this announcement up quite an insane bit. Then he started this thread on expectations.. and hasn't said anything hype-age about the 3rd since, I believe.

Just over a week away. Then all the time spent debating will seem wasted... lol.

Josh Snyder said:
RED has been saying for years that Scarlet will be 2/3 3K. When they announced the november 3. date they started to hype Scarlet announcement a lot and saying that something awesome (not the exact word) is coming in the form of Scarlet, they "can't wait for november 3rd", "one of the biggest ennouncement on RED history" etc. After that, how is changing your expections from 3K to 4K "letting expectations out of control"? Something new, something amazing is coming, and you think our expections should be the specs we have seen since 2009?
Click to expand...
 
Hi
I do not write but lurk here since vapourware era.
I too believe camera will be 4k and S35, I do not know the other specs but I think this is the only move to make the camera future proof in the next year scenario.
Jim is a Prima Ballerina like I did not see many :), he will never want to come second, especially if he invested so much personally by putting his face and tremeondous amount of resources on the Red project. In the following months 4K will be announced even on low cost devices in my opinion, not being 4K now can put him behind competition that will come by year 2012.

In order to stay ahead of the pack Jim will astonish everyone by launching now what will become a standard de facto in 1 or 2 years. The battle he started is obviously boosted by his personal ego, and usually you have to fullfill the expectations in order to still be perceived like the alpha male to beat. Something Jim expresses very clearly in his posts. It also seem that profit can be secondary on this termonuclear war he started.

The kind of declarations he now uses (since Epic X readiness) are based in my opinion on the amount of rabbits he still have inside the hat (can I say that in English?) that give him some other nukes to change the game again in the next months. Almost silent before solving problems and now full speed, and super mean statements.

So my bet is: 4k, S35
cannot say about price, not 3k more like 5-6000 USD

Cheers

Cristian Pellizzari, Italy
 
Kevin Marshall said:
I didn't say Red had been promoting it as such. I was bringing up the fact that the "1080p is not good enough" stuff is in reference to replacing film. While Jim's (obviously) a big advocate for 4K everything, I don't think it would be hypocritical of Red to release a 3K 2/3" camera. I think it fits into their general mission of providing digital replacements for film.
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So this 16mm stuff is just something you came up with. Their mission is not to replace all film formats. Their mission is to replace film with digital 4K:

Jannard said:
The future is a 4K digital delivery. EVERYONE knows this.
Click to expand...

Kevin Marshal said:
As far as posts from Jim, I did a quick search on the forum, and have some I'd like to point out. First, some in reference to replacing film (all emphasis mine):

...

All of these clearly show the very reason for Red's existence was to provide a suitable replacement for film.
Click to expand...
Jim says 1080p is not good enough to replace film and 4K is needed. Just what I've said that he has been saying. 4K is the replacement for film according to RED.

As for the whole 16mm thing, I wasn't trying to say that was Red's expressed opinion. I was rather trying to convey that releasing a 3K 2/3" camera wasn't the hypocrisy that some have claimed it to be.
Click to expand...
Because Jim says 4K is the future and replacement for film? Doesn't fit into that picture too well.

One post that I think supports this point (to an extent, and again emphasis mine):
Click to expand...
How about we take a look again what Jim says (without taking things out of the context by bolding half sentences:

Jannard said:
Maybe I should clarify... I don't think that 1080P is the "Gold Standard" for digital. It isn't good enough. It doesn't mean you shouldn't ever shoot 1080P or 2K... or Super 16mm or even Super 8mm. It means that when you are shooting for the best picture... 1080P is just not good enough. It has the same measured resolution as Super 16, which is not considered the "Gold Standard" for film.

The future is a 4K digital delivery. EVERYONE knows this. So the discussion whether 1080P is good enough is over before it ever started. If the argument is whether 1080P is good enough now for HDTV or a 2K projection in theaters, the answer is still "No". Unless the project has no future value whatsoever. Then the answer is a resounding YES! (There is an exception to every rule).

Jim
Click to expand...

You should understand what he says before quoting him. What he says is:

1. chapter: 1080p is not the Golden Standard for digital. When you are shooting for the best picture, it just isn't good enough, because 1080p has same measured resolution as Super 16 and Super 16 is not Golden Standard for film.

2. chapter: The future is 4K. Everyone knows it. 1080p aka Super 16 is not good enough.

So yeah, this doesn't take away from the "4K is the future" mantra, but it shows that sometimes you shoot other formats. Along with the earlier quote regarding the ARRI paper - which besides recommending 4K scans for 35mm recommended 3K scans for 16mm - would at least show a rationale for why 3K would be settled on for a 2/3" sensor.

Could the Scarlet end up being 4K? Maybe. That wasn't my point. My point was that there's nothing wrong with it being 3K (if it is still in fact 2/3"). And I'd rather bank on that and be pleasantly surprised than bet on the conjecture of something better and be disappointed.
Click to expand...
Jim didn't say anything about 16mm in the ARRI comment. He only talked about 4K to be the replacement for film. He said that sometimes you shoot other formats including 8mm, meaning (Jim correct if I'm wrong) that sometimes you can use any camera ever made, but only one format has the "Golden Standard" and is good enough.

Your point is not valid.
 
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1) What, then, do you think Jim was referring to when he opened this thread?

2) Did you see the excitement Jim generated around the more recent thread about Alchemy? (Which was a software only development)

3) Do you not understand the incredible possibilities for anything shot in REDCode RAW / R3D - at pretty much ANY resolution?

4) Do you REALLY think only, or even primary, reason for Jim to be jazzed about 11/3 is because the new Scarlet is 4K?

5) Do you think that, along with 4K, the Scarlet will be a larger sensor?
- If so, there are a whole slew of questions around the probability of that development and the timing; and there are as many questions around the whole RED product line.
- If not, the physics of a 2/3" sensor are quite daunting, if not downright impossible, as discussed several places around this forum.

Josh Snyder said:
RED has been saying for years that Scarlet will be 2/3 3K. When they announced the november 3. date they started to hype Scarlet announcement a lot and saying that something awesome (not the exact word) is coming in the form of Scarlet, they "can't wait for november 3rd", "one of the biggest ennouncement on RED history" etc. After that, how is changing your expections from 3K to 4K "letting expectations out of control"? Something new, something amazing is coming, and you think our expections should be the specs we have seen since 2009?
Click to expand...

Kevin's discussions is very valid.
 
My bet is that the Scarlet hardware has been set for many months and the big enhancements and new surprises will come via software/firmware.

From Canon, I expect their "Hollywood" announcement to have specs more targeted at Alexa (Read: 1080 or 2k... I wonder if the price tag will be closer to Alexa or $15k.) In that scenario, Scarlet is still poised to kick booty without any need to boost resolution.

Right or wrong, next week is going to be exciting for sure!
 
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Only one person really knows the answer to this, and that is Jim(and the red team..). I guess we will find out on the 3rd no point in all these assumptions on either side really, as no one side can definitively prove they are correct. Now having these discussions can be fun, as long as we don't take it to personally and get to heated about it, this late in the game no point really. But don't let me stop you....

I'm going to try and restrain myself from posting on any guessing threads, or plain old argument threads until after the third, see you then.

....Try being the important word there!

Have a good one everyone, and play nice!
 
calypse said:
Hi
I do not write but lurk here since vapourware era.
I too believe camera will be 4k and S35, I do not know the other specs but I think this is the only move to make the camera future proof in the next year scenario.
Jim is a Prima Ballerina like I did not see many :), he will never want to come second, especially if he invested so much personally by putting his face and tremeondous amount of resources on the Red project. In the following months 4K will be announced even on low cost devices in my opinion, not being 4K now can put him behind competition that will come by year 2012.

In order to stay ahead of the pack Jim will astonish everyone by launching now what will become a standard de facto in 1 or 2 years. The battle he started is obviously boosted by his personal ego, and usually you have to fullfill the expectations in order to still be perceived like the alpha male to beat. Something Jim expresses very clearly in his posts. It also seem that profit can be secondary on this termonuclear war he started.

The kind of declarations he now uses (since Epic X readiness) are based in my opinion on the amount of rabbits he still have inside the hat (can I say that in English?) that give him some other nukes to change the game again in the next months. Almost silent before solving problems and now full speed, and super mean statements.

So my bet is: 4k, S35
cannot say about price, not 3k more like 5-6000 USD

Cheers

Cristian Pellizzari, Italy
Click to expand...

I highly doubt that...at least in that price range anyway. That would be a MIRACLE even with built on lens like the on Scarlet had. I would JUMP on that for sure. It just seems like at that price point an S35 Red camera would come too close to the much pricier Epic cameras in quality, depth of field and cut into their sales too much. The 2/3" scarlet wouldn't be nearly as damaging at that price point, because it's fixed lens and you can't really get the same DOF, so those who want shallower depth, especially at wider angles, have more of a reason to pay a lot more.
 
If the Scarlet now is supposed to be anything other than 3K, the only probable option left would be a camera with the same sensor as the Epic. That is 5K, 30mmx15mm. This would complicate EVERYTHING in that camera, and it being fixed lens would also be foolish. This sounds highly implausible.

Bet on the Scarlet still being 3K, 2/3", fixed and all that jazz.
 
Haha... people are just trying their damndest to kill time... just make sure that time is the only thing we kill here...

I think everyone realizes that RED's 4k is meant to replace film. But Scarlet isn't what RED is replacing film with. There's another camera out there you know!

Scarlet will be brilliant in leveraging all the strenghts that REDCode RAW brings. I guess I should actually write Scarlet Fixed, because I sense that some of the frustration building up is due to the fact that some of us are strictly reffering to Ted's Scarlet when we mention that camera.

For the dreamers out there, there is always the chance that RED will bring more than one camera to the table. But I'd say that the camera we have been seeing will come, first and foremost. Hell, there's even been a picture of loads of Scarlet Fixed, sitting on a shelf, waiting for better times. Maybe just test units, but I don't think so...

But yeah, if RED was bringing out a S35 Scarlet (or Epic S) at 4k, parallell to Scarlet Fixed, I'm sure they could sneek that right by us, being such a tight lipped company and all.... :)
 
Actually, looking at Jim's first post in this thread, he all but spells it out:

Jannard said:
Some people apparently have no idea what realistic is.

"Why not 28K at 1000fps RAW in a raisin box for $800?"

Get real. Get real before November 3rd. Or you will be unnecessarily disappointed. Which is totally unnecessary.

Jim
Click to expand...

What he's saying is:

People want too much resolution, at too high frame rates at too low a price.

Seems to me that resolution, frame rates and price wishes are what is ticking him off a bit.

And among those 3, I would put price in relation to the other things that are demanded.
 
This tug of war is really amazing!

3k! noooo 4k! noooo 3k! noooo 4K!

It’s a desert topping…

No it’s a floor Wax…

NO it’s a desert topping!

NOOO IT’S A FLOOR WAX!!!
…
… No it’s both a desert topping and a floor wax… (sh*t eating grin courtesy of Chevy Chase)

SNL classic http://www.hulu.com/watch/61320/saturday-night-live-shimmer-floor-wax

Hat’s off to Terri for absolutely sticking to his guns. I used to be a 4ker but now I am happy to be a 3ker. Still an EPIC-S type instrument next year would be useful too.

So what would you guys do if you got a 3.54K sensor?

Just Wondering?

Cheers,

Eric

BTW Christian your English is excellent…
 
Scarlet 4k s35 .... they would kill the red one sales immediately. A Scarlet 3K 2/3, affordable, and upgradable to non fixed lens, 4k, ...., in the future, that would be the perfect camera. But 2/3 3K fixed lens non upgradable <10000$ would already be a dream.
 
Kevin Marshall said:
The Sony F23, raw, 2/3, 1920x1080, 1 to 60fps, is 150000$ .....
Click to expand...
Well, Sony is Sony. Some of their products are great and well priced, others not so.
 
Jeff Lower said:
I would be very happy with that.
Click to expand...

I would be over the moon with that. Red has said that they've improved it a few times since we last saw it, but I'd imagine that the improvements are more along the lines of added features and enhancements to the interface than to the image quality and more conventional specs. I'm excited. :)
 
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