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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

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Ivan Kovax said:
Exactly. That is the way a capitalist society works. It is a balancing act - and even you would admit that Red has always taken great care with their customers. And you can understand that Red has not taken this decision lightly, knowing that it would piss off some customers. They have indicated as much.

So lets all take a deep breath and wait till Red actually makes the pricing announcement. Fingers crossed, you will probably find that it is much ado about nothing.
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Nothing would make me happier.
 
That is all I needed to hear. Thanks for the reassurance Jarred! :)

Jarred Land said:
I can tell you right now Scarlet, as it sits , cannot handle the Dragon.

But as it sits, neither can the Epic.

One way or another we will make sure Scarlet customers have a pathway to the Dragon.

It is a complicated problem, but a good problem to have.
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Christoffer Glans said:
A little thought experiment, feel free to correct it if necessary. Just to think of the repercussions of a serious price change.


14. 8K is the new 4K
15. Red announce "floating point resolution" (my own term, will trademark :P ) FPR. It is an organic representation of pixels making it adapt much like vector graphics and it does not hold a gridbased image, more an organic look like film all though digital.
16. Resolution becomes a thing of the past, a digital image is now virtually impossible to differentiate from the real world.
17. Red announce the virtual reality camera, a virtual production tool for productions made for the new symbiotic mediamerge between games and movies, making Red the leader in new entertainment technology.
18. Arri, Black Magic, Sony and Canon are now bankrupt, allthough black magic still holds a great deal of post production (which is now done on set or in virtual space).
19. Virtual Cinema is now indistinguishable from the real world, people get confused on what is real and what is not.
20. Red announce the A.I cinema production package. An A.I that creates stories by analyzing the internet for human stories. Human creativity takes a hit and the market demand more and more stories created by the A.I for it's "perfection in understanding human behavior".
21. The A.I becomes self aware.
22. Red announce that they might have made a mistake.
23. The Matrix


ok.... maybe I went a little too far, but I think a price change will have repercussions... :)
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Hahaha. Excellent.
 
This is a shockingly long thread. This is not an issue with shades of grey. It is black and white simple math.

A product should cost parts + labor + chunk of NRE + fair profit margin.

More is unethical. Any argument otherwise related to prestige, exclusivity, rental rates, past investments are unethical.

Price gouging is just price gouging. Don't try to put a pretty face on it.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
No I never slept in a car. I got pro gigs when I was still in high school, and paid my way through University mostly with gigs - no family contacts, just b__lls and what my grandmother calls Moxy. Yes I have worked hard, had music video clients put guns in my face, etc. etc. usual show business stories.

So what? What if I hadn't? Does that make me less noble? Are only poor people noble and "good"? How much does one have to suffer before being acceptable to you? I know filmmakers who have suffered a lot - and who suck, others who are great, same for those who have not suffered much at all. Who cares?

I don't post on Cinematographer.com (I probably should, if only to defend Red) but I do frequently read it.

I agree that the opinion there of Red is unfairly negative and FUD-filled, but there are many other defenders, not just those you mention. But some of these guys are titans I otherwise have tremendous respect for. Instead of demonizing them, I think we should examine how they came about these false beliefs, and try to change them.

Dirty game? Usual suspects? I have no idea what you are talking about. I really don't. There's no game here, just brutal honesty from me.
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Yes, there's a huge difference between art and business. Normally, the last one brings money but it is made based on formulas already tested before. Reason enough to put me also to sleep in front of the screen in many of those known as blockbusters. :D Demonizing such poor devils? No, literally speaking :P Art is anything you can call it, but an attempt to not follow (necessarily) the business rule. It demands sacrifice most part of the time.

In any case and as another user quoted by me before pointed out, RED cameras have made this business. People like you want it very closed in order to (self-)protect (in name of) what? Art? No. Just a business of your own. Based on decisions of your own. As you said some pages earlier, based in assumptions you trusted in what? Market? ;-)

Should we all, RED included, follow your own assumptions based on what Jim and Jarred see the need to change it?
Should we all, RED customers, risk our own future in assumptions condemned to the failure, as the need of this move by RED proves to be if nothing will be done?

Because on your own investment, you can respond to your wife (as much as I could get from what you posted back), but we have other under our own umbrella. The same who made a few of us to post in those boards you admit never spent time to defend this camera company project. Others did it, also in your behalf. And nothing changes people when there are corporate interests in-between. To sleep in a car means that. Only for the sake of art, no selfish interests behind. Also true meaning for the word/concept 'indie'.
 
Having more Epics and Scarlets in more people's hands, in my view, is a good thing. Because the balance will shift to the user, to the operator, and not to the tool. What we need if we are good redusers, is to be good with handling a Red camera, operating it, managing its workflow. This will be what separates the good from the bad. The more Epics and Scarlets are out there, the more people will get into red, the more support we will have in plugins, in r3d integration in other workflows, etc.

What I do secretly hope is that, since the new Epic owners are going to get it at a much better price with the free Dragon update deal, that us pre-price reduction guys can get some sort of a reduction on the Dragon update. I'm all good for more Epic owners, more Scarlet owners in the World. It means a World that would embrace, more and more, the Raw workflow, which I think is one of the big breakthroughs of Red. And, of course, of 4K!
 
Emanuel A. said:
OK, here's a second one. How many more? Is it possible to fulfill a full hand at least? Because you do a lot of noise. But in the end, I doubt you represent more than 5%... And I'm sorry to say it, but a company doesn't survive with 5% of the customers.

And about Tom, I've always expressed my opinions as same as others in these boards, even if diverging if necessary (it happens at times ;) and he has always respected my voice.
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You have no clue what percentage Rob represents, if you claim otherwise, you are lying.

I wish both Tom and yourself commented on the thread topic instead of reacting on "crybabies" and "whiners". Makes you look pretty unprofessional.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
Well then you think like an artist, not like a business. I am artistically minded as a DP, but I buy gear like a business - cause I can just rent anything I want so it's all about $$$ and making budgets work and staying afloat.

So lets say Epic will now rent for $200 a day (lets hope not, but hypothetically.) I will feel like an idiot. Shooting 4 days or so a month (we shoot highly planned short form - that's actually a lot) that's $800 a month. It will take me basically forever to recoup my money. I could have spent $0 and just rented, and done the same work, with the same camera and kept all that money. It has nothing to do with storytelling or art or anything other than simple math.
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That’s very sweet… you give me far too much credit.

We are integrating the Scarlet/Epic into larger systems that utilize unique hardware and software systems. What we are working on are indeed relevant to cinematic applications but we are actually looking to sell larger engineered systems in rather different markets.

Sounds rather cold (doesn’t) it?

The point being for multi-camera imaging systems if the price point of the cameras start to drop then we can basically engineer higher end systems for less $$$$$$$... so it actually means OUR customers get to do more. Otherwise our potential customers might be less inclined to pull the trigger on more sophisticated systems as they would be prohibitively expensive.

For folks that build complimentary kit, systems and accessories for the RED “arsenal” of HW this is good news… (as mentioned before) as that means there are more potential customers out there and also more customers out there that can spend a larger fraction on complimentary and 3rd party related products.

That’s good for some of the ecosystem of businesses that have at least one foot on the RED Bus.

Sorry that does not work for your situation :-( …

Cheers,

Eric

We had to buy stuff as we had to do extensive testing/design work that could not be put off till later (regardless of price).
 
Milan, I'm sorry to disappoint you but the strategy you look like to apply doesn't work on me. On the contrary. Your opinion on here to me worths zero. I don't need your impression for nothing. I think I can say neither Tom. In any case I invite you to quote me where I had used such words ("crybabies" and "whiners") or suchlike. You owe me excuse.

Anyway, what I know of my professionalism is enough to me and to those with whom I've been in touch (tax department included ;) since 1994 as far as movie business concerns (but I can write back to 1986 extended to other media), even before filmschool, Master in Management in these waters (not camera manufacturing but this business), yes. This ad hominem attack to insinuate me as liar only because I did an estimate only shows the quality (or the lack) of your argument and post. Why don't you open a poll as I suggested once Rob is not doing it? What stops you two to listen the community and have a better estimation of who is with both of you?

If your noise is that such important towards lobbying this stuff of your own.
 
Sergio Perez said:
What we need if we are good redusers, is to be good with handling a Red camera, operating it, managing its workflow. This will be what separates the good from the bad. The more Epics and Scarlets are out there, the more people will get into red, the more support we will have in plugins, in r3d integration in other workflows, etc.
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Agree...it's incredible how much ignorance about RED workflow still exists. I get tired of the requests for shooting on the Alexa based on the concept that the Alexa footage is easier to manage in post....
 
Respectful posts only or I'll start deleting...

Jim
 
To get things back on track: We were pretty certain that we'd pull the trigger on an Epic prior to this thread, but the reduced price seals the deal. Expect an order for an Epic with Red Armor and possibly a Meizler Module as well on November 1 from us, Team Red. :)
 
I may be off course here, but I think it would be really cool if Red could some how hook up the early adopters of the Epic/ Scarlet (At least owners before the new lower prices go into affect) with an option to upgrade to Dragon at a lower cost than the crowd that gets the Epic and Scarlet at the new lower price.

I am reminded of how loyal Red One owners were give the option to upgrade to Epic at a very generous price point and when the initial price of the MX upgrade was lower than it is now....I don't know I am thinking out loud but something like that would be super cool.

But at the same token, I am sure I will be happy with whatever RED decides to do. As Jarred said, "it is a good problem to have" in regards to providing us Scarlet owners with a path to Dragon. It will be possible one way or another.

By the way, I can firmly say I have never been dissapointed in any of REDs decisions as long as I have been a Reduser. It is by far the best company I have EVER done business with and the BEST on-line community on the internets ;)

Sergio Perez said:
Having more Epics and Scarlets in more people's hands, in my view, is a good thing. Because the balance will shift to the user, to the operator, and not to the tool. What we need if we are good redusers, is to be good with handling a Red camera, operating it, managing its workflow. This will be what separates the good from the bad. The more Epics and Scarlets are out there, the more people will get into red, the more support we will have in plugins, in r3d integration in other workflows, etc.

What I do secretly hope is that, since the new Epic owners are going to get it at a much better price with the free Dragon update deal, that us pre-price reduction guys can get some sort of a reduction on the Dragon update. I'm all good for more Epic owners, more Scarlet owners in the World. It means a World that would embrace, more and more, the Raw workflow, which I think is one of the big breakthroughs of Red. And, of course, of 4K!
Click to expand...
 
Rob Ruffo said:
Well then you think like an artist, not like a business. I am artistically minded as a DP, but I buy gear like a business - cause I can just rent anything I want so it's all about $$$ and making budgets work and staying afloat.

So lets say Epic will now rent for $200 a day (lets hope not, but hypothetically.) I will feel like an idiot. Shooting 4 days or so a month (we shoot highly planned short form - that's actually a lot) that's $800 a month. It will take me basically forever to recoup my money. I could have spent $0 and just rented, and done the same work, with the same camera and kept all that money. It has nothing to do with storytelling or art or anything other than simple math.
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So Rob...dude .. be honest.. Is your wife beating you over the head with a frying pan for buying that Epic?

I have to say a lot of women are VERY shrewd when it comes to business… and saying that we made the best decision with all of the available information we had at the time is… alas…. often not good enough for some :-)

Sincerely, I hope things work out for you

Very Best,

Eric
 
Nobody will probably care about this, but since we are on the topic of price drops/"accessibility", I think it would be awesome if RED had their own bank/financing company and could lease out cameras in-house..like BMW or all the other car companies. I'm a college filmmaker and I (and a ton of other kids) can't ever afford a 15k camera kit, but we could easily sell our DSLRs and put the money as a down payment, then do 2-400/month for 36-60 months with option to buy at the end. That would really sell a TON of cameras, I'm not joking...
 
Emanuel A. said:
Milan, I'm sorry to disappoint you but the strategy you look like to apply doesn't work on me. On the contrary. Your opinion on here to me worths zero. I don't need your impression for nothing. I think I can say neither Tom. In any case I invite you to quote me where I had used such words ("crybabies" and "whiners") or suchlike. You owe me excuse.

Anyway, what I know of my professionalism is enough to me and to those with whom I've been in touch (tax department included ;) since 1994 as far as movie business concerns (but I can write back to 1986 extended to other media), even before filmschool, Master in Management in these waters (not camera manufacturing but this business), yes. This ad hominem attack to insinuate me as liar only because I did an estimate only shows the quality (or the lack) of your argument and post. Why don't you open a poll as I suggested once Rob is not doing it? What stops you two to listen the community and have a better estimation of who is with both of you?

If your noise is that such important towards lobbying this stuff of your own.
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Well, for what it's worth your opinion also means zero to me. I wish you concentrate on expressing your views without criticizing others for expressing legitimate concerns of their own. Everybody's situation is different, I've been in this business for 20 years too and paid my dues.
The fact is you don't know how many people share Rob's opinion because people are simply afraid to speak out or they don't care about voicing their opinions here because they know they will be shut down and insulted by the likes of you and Tom Lowe. Just a minute ago I spoke to an early Red adopter and an Epic owner who didn't have a clue about the Epic price decrease. He was not pleased about the news to say the least. Not everybody hangs out here 24/7. Opening a poll here would mean nothing.

Most people who are excited about the news are Scarlet users and potential Epic buyers, and good for them, I mean that genuinely. For the rest of us, this news is not so rosy.
 
I think RED's been remarkably consistent on pricing, basically if it costs more to make they bump the price, if it cost them less to make they reduce the price. There have been probably a 100 examples of this over the year, in a world where everything changes, RED has been consistent on this principle. I have also noticed when things cost them more, they normally announce it, and give a grace period before raising the price. So basically we are notified in both directions, always to the consumers benefit.
 
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