EPIC-X ETA Update?

[Curran Giddens]

The first Epic-X cameras to ship will be the Stage 2 packages. Many parts from the package aren't ready. It isnt just the 18 parts in the Brain. The I/O Module, Battery Module, REDvolt batteries...

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Not to rain on you parade but it doesn't make much sense:
If Red has 98% parts sitting in inventory including the cast housings(?) why would they continue to hand assemble?
Why not just allocate the missing parts even at sky high prices and start production at their new facility? Why have it sit idle while spending a fortune for hand assembly?
They could test drive the systems - inventory control, QA, etc. since they are running small numbers.
No matter how high the cost of the 2% parts is that would surely save them a fortune.....
Jim is much smarter than that I think...
I'm sure they thought of it long time ago.
Also they are tons of other aspects that I'm not aware of I'm sure.
And I'm 100% sure that RED is doing everything to offer the lowest price they can (on M)-it's just how free market works in this country....

I'm no manufacturing expert but my view is 180 degrees opposite of this. How would it make sense to fire up the power in a large manufacturing facility and bring in assembly line workers just to turn out, what, maybe 1 or 2 cameras a day? Or, if the backlog is a couple dozen or more cameras, you bring in all those workers and start up all the machines for a few days of work and then lay them all off again? Like you said, I think Jim knows what he's doing when it comes to running a business. :coolgleamA:

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

I'm no manufacturing expert but my view is 180 degrees opposite of this. How would it make sense to fire up the power in a large manufacturing facility and bring in assembly line workers just to turn out, what, maybe 1 or 2 cameras a day? Or, if the backlog is a couple dozen or more cameras, you bring in all those workers and start up all the machines for a few days of work and then lay them all off again? Like you said, I think Jim knows what he's doing when it comes to running a business. :coolgleamA:

Terry-you may be right but this would be the first time I hear that running two manufacturing facilities is cheaper than running one and hand assembling product is cheaper than even running small numbers in factory...

I think you are correct Curran- they want to avoid negativity on the forum- the primary marketing/ communication medium for RED.
While , as usually, many would initially agree to accept the body and backorder the accs, the out of control whining would start as soon as they receive their bodies.
Add to that the logisitical nightmare (costly!!!!) of backordering tens of thousands of items....
Now I get it!!!!!
Good job RED- don't get lured into this trap!!!!!

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Terry-you may be right but this would be the first time I hear that running two manufacturing facilities is cheaper than running one and hand assembling product is cheaper than even running small numbers in factory...

Not sure what you mean by running two manufacturing facilities. My guess is that the major facility might be set up and ready to go but I doubt it is actually running yet. Otherwise, Last time I looked, I think the principle was called "economies of scale." When you don't have the "scale," you don't get the "economies." :001_smile:

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Economies of scale principle works if you don't have "spare" manufacturing facility idling while you hand assemble.
Hand assemble means high labor cost and low overhead.
Manufacturing mean low labor cost and high overhead.
Even idling factory is a huge overhead.
So they have to deal with high overhead (factory) and high labor cost(hand assembly)
Not ideal but best solution at the time I suppose....
And it definitely reflects the final product price...

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I guess we could argue about the economics of business all day... the manufacturing facility is a fixed cost at this point no matter what. Turning the switch on it to get it operational is a bigger variable cost than is warranted at this volume; heating, A/C, electric power, assembly workers, personnel overhead (security, admin, mgmt) ,etc. I guess we can just let Jim decide how to run his business. :coolgleamA:

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Terry,
The two biggest overhead items for manufacturing are:
1. Payroll
2. Payments on building, machinery (fixed costs?)
Utylities, raw materials, etc have a marginal impact compared to the two above
I've dealt with(albeit much smaller scale) manufacturing for 20 years.
Every machine shop owner will tell you that every minute of the machine idling and not "making chips" is the biggest challenge.
RED has both now- payroll to pay the assemblers- probably more than factory workers.
Fixed costs since the facilities are in place.
And that is reflected in the cost of the product- ultimately...

 

[Martin Weiss]

I can think of at least two and a half gazillion things I'd rather do than waiting and waiting for my Epic-X, but still I am confident that RED do their very best at getting out their cameras as soon as they can. If buying those two missing per cent was an option, I'm sure we'd all be shooting 5k right now. I'm a very impatient soul, but don't see the benefit of pure speculation in an area I know nothin' about.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Terry,
The two biggest overhead items for manufacturing are:
1. Payroll
2. Payments on building, machinery (fixed costs?)
Utylities, raw materials, etc have a marginal impact compared to the two above
I've dealt with(albeit much smaller scale) manufacturing for 20 years.
Every machine shop owner will tell you that every minute of the machine idling and not "making chips" is the biggest challenge.
RED has both now- payroll to pay the assemblers- probably more than factory workers.
Fixed costs since the facilities are in place.
And that is reflected in the cost of the product- ultimately...

Like I said, we could argue all day... doesn't change anything.

 

[Nils Ruinet]

Same situation as before. Just because the headlines have turned to basketball and Libya doesn't mean the lasting effect of the Japan situation isn't causing every manufacture grief.

Jim

So, "same situation as before" means you're still planing on starting production in earnest in June, right ? If not, please let us know, that's all we're asking...

 

[Steve Marshall]

The only thing I know about business is that if you ignore the hot blonde and go with her friends, everything is better for everyone.

The EpicX will come when it's ready and the only time I want one is when it's ready!

 

[Malvin Ng]

The only thing I know about business is that if you ignore the hot blonde and go with her friends, everything is better for everyone.

The EpicX will come when it's ready and the only time I want one is when it's ready!

Same here , waiting anxiously

 

[patrickortman]

I agree, when it's ready is when it's ready. I believe RED's doing everything humanly possible to speed it.

But, dang, man- for a tiny shop like ours we're bashing up against some painful options for 3 upcoming shoots (late June through July, so we make a particular Sundance deadline). Having at least a general "no, it won't be ready for Stage 3 guys until XXX at least" would really be helpful. For bigger shops, perhaps, the delays aren't as bad- they can afford renting MX cams or Epic-Ms as needed.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

I'm no manufacturing expert but my view is 180 degrees opposite of this. How would it make sense to fire up the power in a large manufacturing facility and bring in assembly line workers just to turn out, what, maybe 1 or 2 cameras a day? Or, if the backlog is a couple dozen or more cameras, you bring in all those workers and start up all the machines for a few days of work and then lay them all off again? Like you said, I think Jim knows what he's doing when it comes to running a business. :coolgleamA:

Hmmmm

I'm going to take a small swing here, knowing Jim is a big enough guy to take it.

There are many elements to running a business.

As evidence to the contrary, I'll say one word: EVF.

I don't know the backstory to this situation. As I understand it, from reading other threads, there are people just now taking delivery of EVFs - EVFs they ordered 18-20 *months* ago. An EVF is a pretty critical component of a camera system for most people, no?

That's unconscionable. The correct Anglo-Saxon term to describe that kind of situation is 'clusterf**k'.

It's the kind of clusterf**k that would have resulted in many normal businesses going under. Only the fact that the RED product is so good and so revolutionary makes people prepared to tolerate, to some degree, that kind of situation.

If I was running a business and that kind of situation developed... ahhh but I'm not... but if I was... I think after a certain point - closer to 20 weeks than 20 months - you have to say 'STOP! - what in hell are we doing here?' - put everything on hold and dedicate whatever resources you have to solving this problem, now, in a very timely fashion, before moving on to the next great thing. You can't build tomorrow if today is falling apart.

I have no axe to grind. I haven't been waiting for an EVF. This comment isn't intended to disparage the wonderful things RED have delivered. I'm a happy RED customer. But the evidence of the EVF is that things most certainly could be... better run. That's all I'm sayin

Mike

 

[R. Gonzales]

Not to rain on you parade but it doesn't make much sense:
If Red has 98% parts sitting in inventory including the cast housings(?) why would they continue to hand assemble?
Why not just allocate the missing parts even at sky high prices and start production at their new facility? Why have it sit idle while spending a fortune for hand assembly?
They could test drive the systems - inventory control, QA, etc. since they are running small numbers.
No matter how high the cost of the 2% parts is that would surely save them a fortune.....
Jim is much smarter than that I think...
I'm sure they thought of it long time ago.
Also they are tons of other aspects that I'm not aware of I'm sure.
And I'm 100% sure that RED is doing everything to offer the lowest price they can (on M)-it's just how free market works in this country....

I think and this is just a guess... but just like lenses, all EPICS will be assembled by hand after its circuit boards have been manufactured and tested. Just a thought.

 

[Erich Ocean]

Having at least a general "no, it won't be ready for Stage 3 guys until XXX at least" would really be helpful.

There's just no way you're going to get a Stage 3 Epic by late June/July, period. Not a chance. Won't happen. Don't even consider it.

I'm on the list for the Epic-M, and may still go that route when/if given the chance, and I've got a Stage 2 Epic-X on order, BUT...just a week ago, I told my wife that if I don't have a RED Epic camera (and whatever gear is necessary to actually use it -- SSDs, EVF, RedMote and such) in my hands by mid-September, we'll have to buy a Sony F3 with the 4:4:4 S-Log RGB upgrade and a Cinedeck Extreme to record uncompressed 1080p or ProRes 4444 on. That's basically an Alexa-class camcorder for around $27K, ready to shoot. It's a killer deal. (You could also save some $$$ and get a Convergent Design's Gemini 4:4:4 instead, bringing the total cost down to $22K. Amazing!)

I'll still buy the Epic-X when it ships, and happily use it, but I'm sure I'm not alone in being a little sad at having to spend my $$$ now on another company's kit, when I would MUCH rather send that same cash to RED for an Epic. I'm sure they are just as frustrated by this situation as we are, and doing everything they can to get the company running as well as their cameras do.

 

[Imran Farouk]

Worst case scenario, EPIC-X orders are filled by December...
and production starts August/September...

I'm sure they want this stuff out the door this year,
otherwise there is the off chance they'll be shipping along side the Dragon program (if 2012 time frame is still on route by December), which is a whole other issue...

I'm probably going to spend my $$ now on a Leica M9 and Noctilux lens whilst I wait out for EPIC-X since I have an R1 anyway which does the job, my only ever issue with the R1 is the weight, its solid, its beautiful but heck of a lot of effort to transport it, set up and then pack and go back...
EPIC looks like there is no excuse at all for the weight being an issue

EDIT:

I might be a bit optimistic but just went back to the "Supply Chain" Thread @ Recon (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?56375-Supply-chain...) and saw the first post from Jannard

"The 1st (very small) batch of EPIC-X will not affected as we have local parts inventory. We are scrambling to find alternate sources to minimize any delays to continued EPIC-X production."

So...June still perhaps an option? Just not sure when in June...and small batch maybe at least half of Stage 2 or a 1/4? So at least there are X's out there...

 

[Kalani Prince]

This all doesn't make delivery for Scarlet look very good at all...

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Hmmmm

I'm going to take a small swing here, knowing Jim is a big enough guy to take it.

There are many elements to running a business.

As evidence to the contrary, I'll say one word: EVF.

I don't know the backstory to this situation. As I understand it, from reading other threads, there are people just now taking delivery of EVFs - EVFs they ordered 18-20 *months* ago. An EVF is a pretty critical component of a camera system for most people, no?

That's unconscionable. The correct Anglo-Saxon term to describe that kind of situation is 'clusterf**k'.

It's the kind of clusterf**k that would have resulted in many normal businesses going under. Only the fact that the RED product is so good and so revolutionary makes people prepared to tolerate, to some degree, that kind of situation.

If I was running a business and that kind of situation developed... ahhh but I'm not... but if I was... I think after a certain point - closer to 20 weeks than 20 months - you have to say 'STOP! - what in hell are we doing here?' - put everything on hold and dedicate whatever resources you have to solving this problem, now, in a very timely fashion, before moving on to the next great thing. You can't build tomorrow if today is falling apart.

I have no axe to grind. I haven't been waiting for an EVF. This comment isn't intended to disparage the wonderful things RED have delivered. I'm a happy RED customer. But the evidence of the EVF is that things most certainly could be... better run. That's all I'm sayin

Mike

Your comment really has nothing at all do to with my post. If one doesn't have the parts, having the biggest, baddest manufacturing facility in the world isn't going to make things better. And, in that case, firing up the infrastructure to run a 100,000 square foot facility (or whatever) isn't going to make things move out the door any faster or cheaper. The truth is, there are too many moving parts that none of us know anything about to make any reasonable assessments. I'll stick with the notion that Jim & Company may not be infallible, but they are better than most of us would be in getting the job done.

 

[Shane Kelly]

There's just no way you're going to get a Stage 3 Epic by late June/July, period. Not a chance. Won't happen. Don't even consider it.

I'm on the list for the Epic-M, and may still go that route when/if given the chance, and I've got a Stage 2 Epic-X on order, BUT...just a week ago, I told my wife that if I don't have a RED Epic camera (and whatever gear is necessary to actually use it -- SSDs, EVF, RedMote and such) in my hands by mid-September, we'll have to buy a Sony F3 with the 4:4:4 S-Log RGB upgrade and a Cinedeck Extreme to record uncompressed 1080p or ProRes 4444 on. That's basically an Alexa-class camcorder for around $27K, ready to shoot. It's a killer deal. (You could also save some $$$ and get a Convergent Design's Gemini 4:4:4 instead, bringing the total cost down to $22K. Amazing!)

I'll still buy the Epic-X when it ships, and happily use it, but I'm sure I'm not alone in being a little sad at having to spend my $$$ now on another company's kit, when I would MUCH rather send that same cash to RED for an Epic. I'm sure they are just as frustrated by this situation as we are, and doing everything the can to get the company running as well as their cameras do.

Agree with you on this, I just paid for a Sony fs100 to combat the amount of jobs that go dslr. I would have picked up an f3 but they're hard to get right now.. Id rather shoot jobs on the epic than the fs100 but I don't see that happening until maybe September,who knows maybe next year. I still do a lot of red jobs and my red goes out on rental quite a bit but as soon as an Alexa comes to town the red will start gathering dust.
I want to give my money to red but I have to keep up with the current business trends and I have to spend a certain amount on equipment each year. I'm almost done.