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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic-W upgrade to Weapon 8K Helium or Gemini?

Sooo I pulled the trigger and booked the Epic-W Helium to DSMC2 Gemini Upgrade for late November.

The main issue is that with the jobs where I bring my own camera, nobody wants to shoot in 8K RAW - at least from a storage and editing perspective. Most of the people I work with don't have beefy enough computers to handle 8K, even at reduced quality, nor do they have enough storage space, especially if we add proxies into the mix. There's also the fact that not many editors (at my level at least) are comfortable with a proxy workflow, let alone a RAW workflow. I've had to do a lot of conforming timelines, keyframing and VFX (basically fixing all the scaling) because the editors were basing their calculations off 2K proxies and not taking into consideration the 8K originals.

Also, slow-mo is a consideration since I shoot quite a bit of it. If I upgraded to DSMC2 Helium and film 60fps in 8K, those problems are magnified. And I really hate going to a 6K crop to do slow-mo. They are happy enough with 4K ProRes (and I can't do slow-mo with that), but I just love working with RAW because of its flexibility and power.

I love the image quality of my Helium, I love the downsampling to 4K results that 8K provides, and the ability to do crazy digital zooms and punch-ins, but right now, for the jobs I do it's not worth it. Since I don't think 8K will be widely adopted for at least another 3-4 or more years, I can revisit this by then, maybe with a Monstro.

I do wish there was a 6K cut of Gemini though. That would be the perfect all-round camera for me.
 
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Jeff Kilgroe said:
I have Monstro and had Helium and Dragon before that. While I think they’re all excellent in their own ways, Monstro is the stand-out winner. I’m one of the weirdos who prefers Helium over Dragon. I didn’t at first, but the color science did improve and I got better at working with it.
Click to expand...

I’m feeling the same...
Funny thing is I started this thread more than a month ago and now that it’s time to upgrade I’m even more confused than before, ah, ah, ah!
I read everywhere that Gemini is the best sensor in the line up after Monstro and it outworks Helium but I haven’t seen anything really proving it...
 
I have yet to see a definitive low-light test that compares a downscaled 8k-to-4k (helium or monstro) to Gemini 5k>4k. Something tells me the real-world low-light differences, after finishing/broadcast/streaming/encoding, probably aren't nearly drastic enough to warrant opting for 5k instead of 8k... Even if you don't use 8k often, it's nice to have it in your toolbox (whether you only use it as 8k>4k downscale for better looking low-light footage, or because 1 in 5 clients actually want 8k because it's a future standard, or because you're planning on pulling 35mp stills).

I'm not one to play the resolution game (I think it's overrated), but at the same time 8k will eventually become a standard and it'd be nice to have years worth of 8k footage when that happens. In other words, helium footage will be relevant for way longer, while gemini is a 4k camera.

Just my 2cents; take with a grain of salt.
 
Mike P. said:
I have yet to see a definitive low-light test that compares a downscaled 8k-to-4k (helium or monstro) to Gemini 5k>4k. Something tells me the real-world low-light differences, after finishing/broadcast/streaming/encoding, probably aren't nearly drastic enough to warrant opting for 5k instead of 8k... Even if you don't use 8k often, it's nice to have it in your toolbox (whether you only use it as 8k>4k downscale for better looking low-light footage, or because 1 in 5 clients actually want 8k because it's a future standard, or because you're planning on pulling 35mp stills).

I'm not one to play the resolution game (I think it's overrated), but at the same time 8k will eventually become a standard and it'd be nice to have years worth of 8k footage when that happens. In other words, helium footage will be relevant for way longer, while gemini is a 4k camera.

Just my 2cents; take with a grain of salt.
Click to expand...

This makes a lot of sense. To me anyway.....
 
Well in a new camera, Red thinks the Helium is worth 5k more than the Gemini -- for whatever that is worth. I picked to stick with Helium and don't regret the decision (X2). I think the low light, if lit at all, with the Helium is really pretty good. ISO 800 which used to be ISO 1600 just a bit ago, has no issues and can be pushed a stop. To me, the Gemini is a specialty camera, best for night and extreme slow motion but in day mode not sure it is any better at all than Helium. And at 60p the shutter is 1/60 so not much light loss compared to 24p. Also, 8k to 4k (or 2k hate to say) ProRes in camera is awesome. Just could not go back to 5k/4k after using the Epic-W.
 
Some thoughts and observations.

Gemini & Helium REDCODE comparison

DSMC2 Gemini -

5KFF (480/512/960/1TB Mini-Mag) 24fps 2:1RC
5KFF (480/512/960/1TB Mini-Mag) 60fps 5:1RC

DSMC2 Helium -

5KFF (480/512/960/1TB Mini-Mag) 24fps 2:1RC
5KFF (480/512/960/1TB Mini-Mag) 60fps 5:1RC

8KFF (480/512/960/1TB Mini-Mag) 24fps 5:1RC
8KFF (480/512/960/1TB Mini-Mag) 60fps 12:1RC


Gemini and Helium have the same REDCODE compression ratios when the Helium is cropped to the Gemini's maximum 5KFF resolution, but the Helium uses higher compression when at it's maximum 8KFF resolution. IMO the higher compression of the full 8K frame isn't a big deal, especially when you factor in how the image will probably be viewed (at 4K or lower) and when you compare it to how a 5KFF Gemini frame would look when up-rezzed to 8K (ie. the higher Helium 8K res over-rides the higher compression it requires).


Gemini & Helium DATARATE comparison

DSMC2 Gemini -

RED 5K FF (24fps 2:1RC) - 254.11 MB Per second/14.89 GB Per Minute
RED 5K FF (60fps 5:1RC) - 254.11 MB Per second/14.89 GB Per Minute

DSMC2 Helium -

RED 5K FF (24fps 2:1RC) - 254.11 MB Per second/14.89 GB Per Minute
RED 5K FF (60fps 5:1RC) - 254.11 MB Per second/14.89 GB Per Minute

RED 8K FF (24fps 5:1RC) - 260.21 MB Per Second/15.25 GB Per Minute
RED 8K FF (60fps 12:1RC) - 271.05 MB Per Second/15.88 GB Per Minute

Gemini and Helium have the same data rates when the Helium is cropped to the Gemini's maximum 5KFF resolution, but (according to Phil's Data Rate calculator) the Helium uses 0.36(@24fps) to .99 GB(@60fps) per minute more data when at it's maximum 8KFF resolution. So, for comparison, a 960GB RED Mini-Mag would allow you to record 62 minutes of 8KFF (24fps 5:1RC) or 64 minutes of 5KFF (24fps 2:1RC). Not a significant difference IMO.


Gemini & Helium Dynamic Range comparison

The Helium highlights will clip sooner than the Gemini in Standard mode, but not by much imo http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...discussion!!&p=1802406&viewfull=1#post1802406

Can't recall right now seeing a direct Gemini (Standard & Lowlight mode) & Helium underexposure comparison. In Lowlight mode, the Gemini will perform better than the Helium (similar to how the Monstro also will), but it will also make your highlights clip a little bit sooner too. For me personally (I don't mind noise and don't mind crushing the shadows in post) the better lowlight performance of the Gemini isn't a deal-breaking must-have feature like it would be for some others.


Gemini & Helium Crop Factor comparison

http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare...=Gemini+5K+S35&formatB=5K+1.7:1&focalLengths=

http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare...elB=Helium+8K+S35&formatB=5K+FF&focalLengths=

I think this is still the biggest observable difference between the Helium & Gemini sensors, just like it was when the Helium first came out and was compared to the Dragon sensor. All three sensors will give you a great image if you shoot them properly, but if you're not going to use the Helium at 8K (or thereabouts), the crop factor definitely needs to be taken into consideration. If you really need or want that wider FOV at 5K and don't have or want to use speedboosters or wider angle lenses, then the Helium just isn't an option and the Gemini is a no compromise better solution.
 
I'm really glad I've been able to read all those different opinions about those two sensors, that's what I love most about Reduser.
Thanks everyone who took the time to reply.
I will finally upgrade to Helium 8K... Before my Weapon turned into Monstro, it was an Helium 8K for a few months and I used to love it. I loved that camera more than my actual Epic-W.
Most of my job are now finished in 4K but I got addicted to the extra resolution and I really like the detail I can find in 8K in the Helium sensor.
 
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