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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic-W upgrade to Weapon 8K Helium or Gemini?

I'm debating the switch as well.

But while we're here, here are some of my favorite examples of Helium:

Hookie Co. - Crafting Passion - Shot by Toby Linden
https://youtu.be/QAH4fWCRGXU

Mercedes-Benz 'Limitless' - Shot by Jason Han
https://vimeo.com/213587008

Shangri-La Penthouses - Shot by Jason Han
https://vimeo.com/192868019

Fishtown Soldier - Shot by Drew Saracco
https://vimeo.com/245869128

Chimi Eyewear - SS17 - Shot by Albin Sjodin
https://vimeo.com/216285439

I Tystnaden - Shot by Albin Sjodin
https://vimeo.com/249660313

Rovia Activa - Shot by Thai Christen
http://thaichristen.com/roviva2.html
 
All of those piece looked fantastic... But those last two... man those look stunning!! Especially "I Tystnaden". Thanks for sharing these! As for lowlight and how Helium is concerned... I remember when Helium first came out and everyone was clamoring at how good the lowlight capabilities is... And it definitely is/was.. Now it seems like that discussion never happened and people just say that Helium isn't all that great for lowlight. Not sure I completely agree with that but that's just me. Thats not to say Gemini isn't better in lowlight, from the tests I've seen, it is... I'm just sayin that Helium in lowlight isn't bad and in my experience, it's better than dragon was in lowlight. 8K downsampled to 4K is incredible. But if you have a Monstro, then ya... maybe gemini might be a better fit?



Aaron Lochert said:
I'm debating the switch as well.

But while we're here, here are some of my favorite examples of Helium:

Hookie Co. - Crafting Passion - Shot by Toby Linden
https://youtu.be/QAH4fWCRGXU

Mercedes-Benz 'Limitless' - Shot by Jason Han
https://vimeo.com/213587008

Shangri-La Penthouses - Shot by Jason Han
https://vimeo.com/192868019

Fishtown Soldier - Shot by Drew Saracco
https://vimeo.com/245869128

Chimi Eyewear - SS17 - Shot by Albin Sjodin
https://vimeo.com/216285439

I Tystnaden - Shot by Albin Sjodin
https://vimeo.com/249660313

Rovia Activa - Shot by Thai Christen
http://thaichristen.com/roviva2.html
Click to expand...
 
Sergio Perez said:
Its a youtube link, but here’s a video where 80% was done on Helium and the Rest on Red Epic dragon and Scarlet Drago (drone shots Inspire 2 X5S and one or 2 canon 1DX mark II shots on gymbal). Final race highlights section is from broadcast feed 1080p.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PDigHy94oCI

Helium worked great for all these footages from the glamour headshots and cars at the beginning (8K) to the slow motion shots at 100+ fps 6K, 4K and 3K.

With ipp2, proper temperature black shading, the Helium is in my opinion better in every sense to my old Epic Dragon.

I did upgrade to Monstro because Full Frame suits some of my work, but Helium for me was great. And the low light is nowhere near as bad as some say. Its equiparable to my old Epic Dragon with LL OLPF , and that is using the Standard OLPf.
Click to expand...

Sergio, great work. It's amazing when you have that broadcast stuff thrown in, because by comparison, it looks so low grade compared to your stuff. Nothing against the people or equipment that make broadcast stuff, but it is kind of striking.
 
It all comes down to your needs and the products you allready have.
We have a Fujinon cabrio 19..90 (2 of them) and we shoot a lot of commercials (SMB who want UHD delivery) with these lenses in combination with our BMD UMP 4.6k.
A week ago we rented a Helium because the customer had read something about 8k capture > 4k delivery and he liked that story and was willing to pay for it.
Long story short, 7,5k (bayer capture) HD Helium>UHD looks freaking amazing and from the math side this will be more accurate than a 4,5k (bayer capture) HD Gemini>UHD or BMD UMP 4,6k(bayer capture)>UHD.

Haven't tested the Helium (yet).

Fujinon 19..90 covers a Sensor size: 27.45 x 15.44 mm (image circle 31,494 mm).
It's not just the camera, it should also fit the rest of your equipment (atleast that is how I see it).
 
Misha Engel said:
It all comes down to your needs and the products you allready have.
We have a Fujinon cabrio 19..90 (2 of them) and we shoot a lot of commercials (SMB who want UHD delivery) with these lenses in combination with our BMD UMP 4.6k.
A week ago we rented a Helium because the customer had read something about 8k capture > 4k delivery and he liked that story and was willing to pay for it.
Long story short, 7,5k (bayer capture) HD Helium>UHD looks freaking amazing and from the math side this will be more accurate than a 4,5k (bayer capture) HD Gemini>UHD or BMD UMP 4,6k(bayer capture)>UHD.

Haven't tested the Helium (yet).

Fujinon 19..90 covers a Sensor size: 27.45 x 15.44 mm (image circle 31,494 mm).
It's not just the camera, it should also fit the rest of your equipment (atleast that is how I see it).
Click to expand...
I also have the 19-90 (V2 if that matters...and I only have one of them....) but I use it on Helium almost every day. I don't shoot 8K FF, but rather WS, 2:1, and HD. It covers just fine..and looks great. YMMV.
 
Thanks Scot and Vincent! I've been shooting this on Reds since 2012 and really can't find myself doing it any other way... We are even planning on doing a stills book from the footages at a later date. I tell you, 8K opens up possibilities beyond our own motion media...

Here's this year's TV Commercial. We had to do some "funky stuff" so that we could mix with legacy footage. This year the event is celebrating 65 years. Some of the shots were reused from the highlights video of last year. Again, Helium for the win. This year will bring Monstro to the table. Lets see how it goes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79V7DdSWcqI
 
John Brennick said:
All of those piece looked fantastic... But those last two... man those look stunning!! Especially "I Tystnaden". Thanks for sharing these!
Click to expand...

I really liked that one too. The one right above it was shot by the same DP -- I love how different the two of his pieces look with the same sensor.

And here's Thai's thread on the bed commercial: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?166781-Commercial-Epic-W-and-Kowa-Anamorphic

John Brennick said:
I remember when Helium first came out and everyone was clamoring at how good the lowlight capabilities is... And it definitely is/was.. Now it seems like that discussion never happened and people just say that Helium isn't all that great for lowlight.
Click to expand...

I think the ISO recalibration in the IPP2 firmware is what happened there. People love to latch onto numbers so if we conveniently forget that the images are a stop brighter now, then ISO 2000-3200 went from the usable category to the not-so-usable category.

Misha Engel said:
It's not just the camera, it should also fit the rest of your equipment (atleast that is how I see it).
Click to expand...

This is important. People asking "what does Helium give you that Monstro doesn't?" Well, 35 million photosites on a S35 sized sensor, that's what.
 
Like different film stocks, each sensor brings something a bit different to the table.

Helium offers 8K (some exceptions) rez on S35 glass. Full stop. It may not have the jaw dropping low light chops of Gemini, but, IMO, it has good S/N ratio and "smoother" noise character when it does manifest.

Based on limited exposure (pun intended) I find the Gemini renders colors nicely, even 4 stops under key. Good choice for available light gigs like docos. Plenty of resolution for all but a small percentage of projects. Larger pixel pitch plays well with almost any lens out there.

My advice is to think about what image characteristics you deem most important, what glass you like to shoot on and, perhaps more to the point - what type of projects are your bread and butter...

Cheers - #19
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Based on limited exposure (pun intended) I find the Gemini renders colors nicely, even 4 stops under key. Good choice for available light gigs like docos. Plenty of resolution for all but a small percentage of projects. Larger pixel pitch plays well with almost any lens out there.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

I have to deal a lot with very poor lighting to no additional lighting at all so Gemini tick the list here...
 
Got my Gemini yesterday and I can't believe how rich and creamy the skin tones are. So far, couldn't be happier!
 
Gemini is the best camera Red has made so far. I used to dislike Red, but the camera won me over on a test run, so I bought mine two months ago. Rich skintones, impressive dynamic range in both modes and has the most versatile framerate options out of the lineup. Only drawback is that most legacy Cine Zooms and a few select Cine Primes don't cover 5k. I love this camera!
 
Alberto Mojica said:
Gemini is the best camera Red has made so far. I used to dislike Red, but the camera won me over on a test run, so I bought mine two months ago. Rich skintones, impressive dynamic range in both modes and has the most versatile framerate options out of the lineup. Only drawback is that most legacy Cine Zooms and a few select Cine Primes don't cover 5k. I love this camera!
Click to expand...

Why? Gemini is a s35 camera unless you are shooting 4:3. Or am I making a mistake here?
 
Cal Brunker said:
Got my Gemini yesterday and I can't believe how rich and creamy the skin tones are. So far, couldn't be happier!
Click to expand...

Hey Cal, was this from an EPIC-W upgrade or bought new? Anyone had their camera's upgrade come up yet in que?
 
I have Monstro and had Helium and Dragon before that. While I think they’re all excellent in their own ways, Monstro is the stand-out winner. I’m one of the weirdos who prefers Helium over Dragon. I didn’t at first, but the color science did improve and I got better at working with it. And it’s definitely not the ideal sensor for those who want to shoot high speed cropped.

I have not shot Gemini, only worked with some clips shot by others...
 
Staying with helium, got too used to all those pixels. If I wasn't saving for glass I would go with monstro. Excited about 8k 60fps fps for the music video/commercial work as the crop going to 6k drove me nuts before. Although the 6k crop didn't trouble me for wildlife/docu work. Wonder if red is only going to sell 3 cameras soon, maybe no more scarlet and raven?
 
Spent two weeks with a demo Gemini. Loved it, great camera. But in the end I upgraded my Epic-W to DSMC2 Helium. There were plenty of boxes the Gemini ticked over Helium, the main one being smaller files!! However, in the end the Helium image won for me. The smaller noise patterns especially when scaling down to 4k and HD from 8k is just unbeatable for me when compared to Gemini. I have never used Monstro but I'll be getting a demo in a few weeks, I cant wait to learn more about it.

Most people I have talked with about Helium that don't favor it have only used it for a project or two. It's really hard to judge a sensor when you don't live with it for a while. I remember the first time I shot Red One MX, I kind of hated it. Then I shot some more and some more and I realized how much I could actually pull from the footage - I think it's a great sensor. I have spent almost two years with the Helium sensor now and there is something magical to it.
 
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