Epic-W upgrade to Weapon 8K Helium or Gemini?

[vincent kardasik]

Hello all,

This has been a tough question for the past month...
I will upgrade soon but I can't decide which way I want to go...
I already own a Monstro 8K and I guess I don't really need two 8K cameras, here it would be more a decision based on image quality and color rendition.
Based on the pricing before the DSCMC2 unified process, financially talking Weapon 8K Helium would have been the right move but now I need to consider more than that.
Any advice?

Have a great sunday,
Vincent.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

I'd get gemeni if u already have a monstro

I've never been a fan of helium personally

 

[Chris McKechnie]

Here's how I'd rank the cams:
Monstro
Gemini
Dragon
Helium

But that's just me. I was never a fan of Helium, as many others as well. RED just didn't hit it out of the park on that sensor, whereas the others are solid!

 

[vincent kardasik]

I'd get gemeni if u already have a monstro

I've never been a fan of helium personally

Here's how I'd rank the cams:
Monstro
Gemini
Dragon
Helium

But that's just me. I was never a fan of Helium, as many others as well. RED just didn't hit it out of the park on that sensor, whereas the others are solid!

Jake, Chris, many thanks for your inputs.

May I ask you what you don't like about Helium?

 

[Tim Morten]

I haven't shot Monstro (camera upgrade in progress) or Gemini yet, but as much as I loved my Dragon, I loved my Helium more... Definitely some subjectivity involved in making these assessments, perhaps worth shooting some test footage before deciding. The Gemini test footage I've seen certainly looks lovely.

 

[Jon Dishler]

I had a Scarlet which was a Dragon sensor, went to Epic W and really do love the sensor/images better, upgraded to Weapon Helium, and really like the 8k at 60 fps or WS 75 fps, just like the Monstro. I like the sensor size, bigger than super 35 and smaller than full frame. I thought about getting Gemini instead, but the added horsepower of the upgrade doesn't buy you anything at 5k. I find shooting at 800 ISO plenty fast enough but if doing a lot of low light outdoor scenes, would want a Gemini. Happy with my decision (X2).

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Here's how I'd rank the cams:
Monstro
Gemini
Dragon
Helium

But that's just me. I was never a fan of Helium, as many others as well. RED just didn't hit it out of the park on that sensor, whereas the others are solid!

Agree.

I'm not saying you can't make pretty pictures w helium. But it's just a bit too plasticy for me and the color shift issues are annoying. It doesn't have the best highlight retention without treating it carefully.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Cue someone saying the highlight retention depends on how you expose.

 

[Andrew R Lewis]

I dont get it, I have had three people tell me that Gemini is a better sensor than Helium and I should "upgrade" to Gemini from my Helium(for $5k). And then I asked them if they have shot Gemini yet, and no surprise, they haven't.

Red cameras as a whole, historically, have had so much hype around them for good or bad when they first come out. Unless they have actually used both cameras in question, most people are just spreading the hype.

I'm lucky to be getting a demo Gemini this week to take on a project and shoot comparisons with my Helium. We are testing mostly in low light out on a river, but I'm more interested in how the sensor handles normal shooting conditions in standard mode.

For better or worse, most of my clients want my camera because it is 8k and they love the ability to reframe - its a feature of that sensor that helps bring in the money. Plus I shoot a lot of stills and I cant cut my resolution down and my MP's in half based on hype.

For me, its a pretty easy decision to keep my camera over Gemini. But we are thinking about a second camera and this weeks tests will be really helpful with that decision.

 

[Chris McKechnie]

Helium didn't do it for me. Colors, noise pattern, highlight DR, etc. Too many issues. Gemini is far superior IMO. Mini monstro. Great little cam. So yea... I'd consider going from either Epic-W Helium or Weapon Helium to Gemini a definite upgrade!

 

[Andrew R Lewis]

Helium didn't do it for me. Colors, noise pattern, highlight DR, etc. Too many issues. Gemini is far superior IMO. Mini monstro. Great little cam. So yea... I'd consider going from either Epic-W Helium or Weapon Helium to Gemini a definite upgrade!

I completely understand some of the issues people have with Helium. But I have yet to see the comparison footage showing better colors out of Gemini. And I am reserving comment on noise pattern until I see for myself with the Gemini this week, but the Helium noise pattern is some of the best I have seen out of any Red camera so far. It's the most organic I have seen when you come even a little close to proper exposure and especially when shooting 4k prores in camera - something I have only just started exploring in the last few months.

 

[Scot Yount]

I completely understand some of the issues people have with Helium. But I have yet to see the comparison footage showing better colors out of Gemini. And I am reserving comment on noise pattern until I see for myself with the Gemini this week, but the Helium noise pattern is some of the best I have seen out of any Red camera so far. It's the most organic I have seen when you come even a little close to proper exposure and especially when shooting 4k prores in camera - something I have only just started exploring in the last few months.

Helium seems to have been good enough for the second Season of Stranger Things. Looked pretty good to me.

 

[Ro Tierney]

It's decision time for me too. I've been shooting on helium (epic-w) since it came out and love it. Very organic look and once you get to know it in the grading process you can highlight its qualities even more. Haven't used Gemini but haven't been impressed enough by anything online to sway me towards it. Gemini looks more like a black magic camera to my eyes - nice colours etc but missing the magic of the helium 8K>4K micro contrast high end look I'm used to.

 

[Finn Möller]

I can definitely recommend the Gemini. It feels a lot more like the Monstro colourwise and noise level. And the low light ability is another good to have factor. Helium is great and I worked with it too, but I would say that because of the crop Helium is max a 6K-8K Cam. So when you want that 4K 150 oder 5K 120 you lose a lot of depth with helium and it is a lot more noise. I would also say that Helium doesn't give you something that Monstro don't give you. And Gemini is real differences when you compare it with Monstro.
So maybe it is better for you to have an 8K Monstro for everything higher then 5K and the Gemini for 5K and below with its 6μm x 6μm big pixels.

 

[Alexander_Klose]

I had a lot of conversations weather to go DSMC2 Helium or sensor swap to Gemini for our Epic-W.
In the end its a personal thing and depends on how and what you shoot on your camera.

If you have not decided yet which way to go I don´t recommend to rely only on opinions you read online.
Rent out a Gemini or at least analyze some free footage to get an idea if it matches the requirement you have on footage from a camera.

We decided to go full DSMC2 Helium because we always wanted more detail and pixelpeep the shit out of camera footage
The 8k raw of the epic-w is really pleasing to our eye.

4k delivery with other cameras always missed something after export when we worked with compressed, upscaled or native footage.
It´s a very personal thing and has nothing to do with sience.

I remember when everyone screemed "cinema camera" and people started to buy Red or BMD for example.
Today only a hand full of the people I know shoot on these cameras.
Simply because they never tried it before and when they realized that the workflow is
different and much harder than to shoot on a DSLR or mirrorless.

What I want to say with that is, I always would try and choose what I like myself.

The only time I would listen to the majority of opinions is if I was making money with rentals or selling gear.
But otherwise no one can decide it for you and your way of working better than you alone.

Opinions from other professionals and people in the field are great and I love to hear and read them.
But in the end I have to make sure that I can work with what I have and the best thing to get to know that is testing it out by yourself.

 

[vincent kardasik]

Thanks a lot for your imputs, really helpful.

I would also say that Helium doesn't give you something that Monstro don't give you. And Gemini is real differences when you compare it with Monstro.

I tend to feel the same.

Helium didn't do it for me. Colors, noise pattern, highlight DR, etc. Too many issues.

Lots of my clients told me the same when I offered the option between Helium and Monstro which is really subjective I think as there's some great content shot with Helium.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Its a youtube link, but here’s a video where 80% was done on Helium and the Rest on Red Epic dragon and Scarlet Drago (drone shots Inspire 2 X5S and one or 2 canon 1DX mark II shots on gymbal). Final race highlights section is from broadcast feed 1080p.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PDigHy94oCI

Helium worked great for all these footages from the glamour headshots and cars at the beginning (8K) to the slow motion shots at 100+ fps 6K, 4K and 3K.

With ipp2, proper temperature black shading, the Helium is in my opinion better in every sense to my old Epic Dragon.

I did upgrade to Monstro because Full Frame suits some of my work, but Helium for me was great. And the low light is nowhere near as bad as some say. Its equiparable to my old Epic Dragon with LL OLPF , and that is using the Standard OLPf.

 

[vincent kardasik]

Its a youtube link, but here’s a video where 80% was done on Helium and the Rest on Red Epic dragon and Scarlet Drago (drone shots Inspire 2 X5S and one or 2 canon 1DX mark II shots on gymbal). Final race highlights section is from broadcast feed 1080p.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PDigHy94oCI

Helium worked great for all these footages from the glamour headshots and cars at the beginning (8K) to the slow motion shots at 100+ fps 6K, 4K and 3K.

With ipp2, proper temperature black shading, the Helium is in my opinion better in every sense to my old Epic Dragon.

I did upgrade to Monstro because Full Frame suits some of my work, but Helium for me was great. And the low light is nowhere near as bad as some say. Its equiparable to my old Epic Dragon with LL OLPF , and that is using the Standard OLPf.

Great piece Sergio! Helium looks really good here.

 

[Nicolas Chareyre]

I watched many tests and made comparisons. For me the only advantage to HELIUM is his definition, GEMINI has everything else. It's true that it is a good commercial argument for the client to shot in 8K. But as long as you make beautiful shots ... For me GEMINI seems the perfect tool.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Red told me that we can have a unified weapon body upgrade AND keep the Dragon sensor (even if they don’t believe a lot of people will do it)

IMHO Dragon nails it on a lot of point :

I love the texture of the picture and noise
Great DR (less than Gemini and Monstro but wayyy enough for me)
6k sweet spot for great 4K Master

Pat