Epic W Helium vs Epic W Gemini Purchase

[Jason S. Lee]

I don't know if this is the right place to ask the question as most of you guys don't have the new Gemini, but I am thinking whether I should go for the Gemini sensor or the Helium sensor. Extra cost of the helium sensor would be no issue for me. I am a film student at NYU, and most of the stuff that I shoot are indie and NYU films. I think I definitely won't need 8K and 5K would fit my needs as I would be editing in 4K or 1080HD. I am guessing the Helium sensor has superior image quality but the Gemini sensor would be more versatile as it has dual sensitivity mode.

In most circumstances, I will be able to get the subject lit. I don't care about saving on renting light kits as it is the directors who pay for it.

If Helium produces superior images when properly lit(compared to when Gemini is properly lit), I'd go for Helium.

However, if Helium and Gemini produces similar quality image(when properly lit), I'd go for Gemini as I just simply don't need 8K. If such is true, the added versatility of Gemini in its ability to shoot low light mode and its abiliy to shoot 96fps wit no crop would be an advantage in my opinion.

Questions I have are:

1) When properly lit, does Helium sensor provide a superior image quality over Gemini?

2) What is the maximum ISO you can shoot on Epic W Helium with a clean image?

3) How does Epic W with Helium sensor compare against Alexa Mini? Why are some people complaining about how Epic W with Helium sensor is a complicated camera to shoot with?

Thanks in advance!

 

[shashbugu]

I don't know if this is the right place to ask the question as most of you guys don't have the new Gemini, but I am thinking whether I should go for the Gemini sensor or the Helium sensor. Extra cost of the helium sensor would be no issue for me. I am a film student at NYU, and most of the stuff that I shoot are indie and NYU films. I think I definitely won't need 8K and 5K would fit my needs as I would be editing in 4K or 1080HD. I am guessing the Helium sensor has superior image quality but the Gemini sensor would be more versatile as it has dual sensitivity mode.

Questions I have are:

1) In your opinion, does Helium sensor provide a superior image quality over Gemini?

2) What is the maximum ISO you can shoot on Epic W Helium with a clean image?

3) How does Epic W with Helium sensor compare against Alexa Mini? Why are some people complaining about how Epic W with Helium sensor is a complicated camera to shoot with?

Thanks in advance!

#3 is a weird question
test test test

 

[Chris Kennedy]

1) In your opinion, does Helium sensor provide a superior image quality over Gemini?

2) What is the maximum ISO you can shoot on Epic W Helium with a clean image?

3) How does Epic W with Helium sensor compare against Alexa Mini? Why are some people complaining about how Epic W with Helium sensor is a complicated camera to shoot with?

I'd say they are all subjective. There aren't any tests I've seen to compare the Gemini to anything else let alone a Helium. Sure in terms of resolution Helium is all over Gemini, but from what I'd assume-Gemini would have greater DR and is better in low light then Helium. Helium has a bit of a green hue to the shadows hopefully Gemini rectifies that.

As far as maximum ISO that would vary on the OLPF and lighting conditions/environment. I could shoot 2000 ISO on my Helium and with enough light/depending on the environment it might be usable. With the new ISO Calibration I don't take it above 1280ISO with the Standard OLPF (for a supersample to 4k master)-haven't used the Low Light one since that update but I'm sure 1600 would about be the limit for Helium.

I think most people prefer Alexa since they'd feel 8k is overkill, don't want to deal with the delays/processing power in editing, and like the look straight out of the camera. RED on the other hand may have a more scientific/correct look to their color science but to get it to look aesthetically pleasing like an an Alexa's Log C curve takes extra time. Add to that "everyone is using it" sure that's why it seems that Alexa is used on everything.

Like Shashbugu said: test test test
There's no right or wrong answer, just what fits your style and needs-and that could vary from project to project.

 

[Benjamin Jarvis]

I don't know if this is the right place to ask the question as most of you guys don't have the new Gemini, but I am thinking whether I should go for the Gemini sensor or the Helium sensor. Extra cost of the helium sensor would be no issue for me. I am a film student at NYU, and most of the stuff that I shoot are indie and NYU films. I think I definitely won't need 8K and 5K would fit my needs as I would be editing in 4K or 1080HD. I am guessing the Helium sensor has superior image quality but the Gemini sensor would be more versatile as it has dual sensitivity mode.

In most circumstances, I will be able to get the subject lit. I don't care about saving on renting light kits as it is the directors who pay for it.

If Helium produces superior images when properly lit(compared to when Gemini is properly lit), I'd go for Helium.

However, if Helium and Gemini produces similar quality image(when properly lit), I'd go for Gemini as I just simply don't need 8K. If such is true, the added versatility of Gemini in its ability to shoot low light mode and its abiliy to shoot 96fps wit no crop would be an advantage in my opinion.

Questions I have are:

1) When properly lit, does Helium sensor provide a superior image quality over Gemini?

2) What is the maximum ISO you can shoot on Epic W Helium with a clean image?

3) How does Epic W with Helium sensor compare against Alexa Mini? Why are some people complaining about how Epic W with Helium sensor is a complicated camera to shoot with?

Thanks in advance!

In addition to your questions, I think you need to consider if you have the IT infrastructure to process RED footage, store the footage and have back-ups of your drives. Also, as a student you may not have access to the best lighting set-ups or need to go gorilla-style filming for your project. This is where the Gemini sensor could really help you.

Answers/comments to your original questions

1. No one knows yet, we'll have to wait for the camera to end up in the wild.
2. Depends on how you calibrate your sensor, but I usually never push above 2000 ISO.
3. This is a aesthetic preference. You're going to have to do some test between the two cameras to determine what you like. Personally, I think the RED cameras are easy to work with but that's just my preference. As for the color science on camera, Phil Holland has some fantastic LUTs that have really helped me dial in the color. I would also suggest you rent a RED and a Alexa to test and compare for yourself.

What I like about the RED cameras is that I can configure the red with out cables and support arms running out of it. Keeps everything nice and compact.

 

[Martin Whittier]

A lot of people are asking me to compare Helium, Gemini, and Alexa. Next week when our gemini is back in the shop I'll run these 3 against each other and maybe throw in Dragon as well.

 

[Robert Berger]

A lot of people are asking me to compare Helium, Gemini, and Alexa. Next week when our gemini is back in the shop I'll run these 3 against each other and maybe throw in Dragon as well.

Cool!! Looking forward to it!

 

[Bob Gundu]

A lot of people are asking me to compare Helium, Gemini, and Alexa. Next week when our gemini is back in the shop I'll run these 3 against each other and maybe throw in Dragon as well.

Be prepared to have your world turn upside down. Camera comparisons will make you lose your faith in humanity.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Here's how I would approach the choice between Helium and Gemini in an Epic-W chassis:

1) What kind of projects are you doing now or would like to be doing in the near future. This might make the choice easy, but if not...

2) Gemini's low light chops provide opportunities to shoot in situations that otherwise would be a fail.

3) Gemini's larger pixels reduce processing overhead for S35 targets.

4) Helium can resolve more detail with sharp glass and offers greater reframing/punch in options.

5) Higher frame rates without windowing.

6) Gemini will likely rent better in 2018 due to "new hotness" effect

Cheers - #19

 

[Phil Holland]

More or less what Blair said.

Overall, if shot well under decent exposure conditions Helium at 8K will let you a higher quality image. But if you find yourself shooting low light and not needing to finish in 8K in particular, 5K Gemini is great for 4K and 2K productions. Just shot with one and checking out the footage. It's a different sort of thing when taking into account the two exposure modes/sensitivities.

I think what RED did here is pretty cool as there is a core market targeted at 4K and 2K finishing who may be shooting a lit of natural and/or low light situations. Gemini is targeted there and you can of course shoot literally every other type of content with it as well.

Monstro gives you the large format VistaVision and 8K, Helium nets you 8K in S35. All three of these new sensor technologies, as far as I can tell, provide really nice color with fairly subtle-yet-noticeable dynamic range differences as well as format variations.

 

[Michael Wahba]

More or less what Blair said.

Overall, if shot well under decent exposure conditions Helium at 8K will let you a higher quality image. But if you find yourself shooting low light and not needing to finish in 8K in particular, 5K Gemini is great for 4K and 2K productions. Just shot with one and checking out the footage. It's a different sort of thing when taking into account the two exposure modes/sensitivities.

I think what RED did here is pretty cool as there is a core market targeted at 4K and 2K finishing who may be shooting a lit of natural and/or low light situations. Gemini is targeted there and you can of course shoot literally every other type of content with it as well.

Monstro gives you the large format VistaVision and 8K, Helium nets you 8K in S35. All three of these new sensor technologies, as far as I can tell, provide really nice color with fairly subtle-yet-noticeable dynamic range differences as well as format variations.

Post up footage!!

Phil, would you say it would be a similar discussion regarding the purchase decision of a Scarlet-W versus a Gemini? Is that $10k extra worth the low-light? Considering this would be my first RED camera so I will also need to invest in the grips, lights, etc needed. I am coming from a Sony A7sii setup and looking to jump into RED. The SW price point is right, because I can then afford the extras (lights, grip, etc) but jumping into a 3 year old RED makes me nervous. Thoughts?

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I don't know if this is the right place to ask the question as most of you guys don't have the new Gemini, but I am thinking whether I should go for the Gemini sensor or the Helium sensor. Extra cost of the helium sensor would be no issue for me. I am a film student at NYU, and most of the stuff that I shoot are indie and NYU films. I think I definitely won't need 8K and 5K would fit my needs as I would be editing in 4K or 1080HD. I am guessing the Helium sensor has superior image quality but the Gemini sensor would be more versatile as it has dual sensitivity mode.

In most circumstances, I will be able to get the subject lit. I don't care about saving on renting light kits as it is the directors who pay for it.

Greater sensitivity and larger pixel pitch do not mean only the advantage of pushing the sensor rating for low light but that the sensor can distinguish low level signal better in general.

Meaning that this property affects a) subtle tonalities and b) shadows.

If Helium produces superior images when properly lit(compared to when Gemini is properly lit), I'd go for Helium.

Questions I have are:

1) When properly lit, does Helium sensor provide a superior image quality over Gemini?

Too early to say for sure.

It also depends on what one considers as "superior".

2) What is the maximum ISO you can shoot on Epic W Helium with a clean image?

There is no single answer on that question.

Noise also depends on light quality and spectrum coverage. So you will not get the same high ISO rating noise performance under street lights, tungsten, HMI or dusk.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Overall, if shot well under decent exposure conditions Helium at 8K will let you a higher quality image.

Quality or quantity ?

 

[Karl Krings]

what about a Gemini 8K (LL) for Weapon User only. Because if we wanna go a "one way trip" to Gemini we paid 20k too much and stuck at 5K res..
So this would be awesome. Something less cheaper than Monstro... or is this a stupid idea? or get a discount on Gemini to compensate the more costs of "Weapon"
there should be a better way than sensor swapping for about 10k (extra costs)

any ideas?

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

I don't know if this is the right place to ask the question as most of you guys don't have the new Gemini, but I am thinking whether I should go for the Gemini sensor or the Helium sensor. Extra cost of the helium sensor would be no issue for me. I am a film student at NYU, and most of the stuff that I shoot are indie and NYU films. I think I definitely won't need 8K and 5K would fit my needs as I would be editing in 4K or 1080HD. I am guessing the Helium sensor has superior image quality but the Gemini sensor would be more versatile as it has dual sensitivity mode.

In most circumstances, I will be able to get the subject lit. I don't care about saving on renting light kits as it is the directors who pay for it.

If Helium produces superior images when properly lit(compared to when Gemini is properly lit), I'd go for Helium.

However, if Helium and Gemini produces similar quality image(when properly lit), I'd go for Gemini as I just simply don't need 8K. If such is true, the added versatility of Gemini in its ability to shoot low light mode and its abiliy to shoot 96fps wit no crop would be an advantage in my opinion.

Questions I have are:

1) When properly lit, does Helium sensor provide a superior image quality over Gemini?

2) What is the maximum ISO you can shoot on Epic W Helium with a clean image?

3) How does Epic W with Helium sensor compare against Alexa Mini? Why are some people complaining about how Epic W with Helium sensor is a complicated camera to shoot with?

Thanks in advance!

This thread may help
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?166655-DR-a-good-discussion!!

I'm a helium owner but looking forward to upgrading to gemini. It appears to add more than a stop of DR and the option of 2 more stops of sensitivity when you need it and without the green shift helium has. Plus the added framerates opens up more hdrx and frame-averaging options...

In those tests Gemini even seems to compare favorably against Alexa which is a big deal and quite new for RED since helium still falls 1-2 stops short of Alexa.

 

[David Moreno Belmonte]

Conclusions?

 

[Michael Hastings]

Conclusions?

Probably aren't any clear conclusions. However landscape has changed in the more than a year since most of this thread.

1) Gemini is no longer new so the "hotness" factor for rentals probably isn't that great.

2) Blackmagic, Sony, etc. etc. are offering a lot of new 8K products

3) 8k televisions are here and likely to come down in price fairly rapidly. (8K on a 65" panel isn't really any denser pixels than a 4K 43" so manufacturing costs will drop rapidly as the development costs for new chipsets are amortized by early adopters and then volume.)


RED cameras have had an advantage in part because of Netflix 4K origination requirement. Who knows how long before Netflix and others require 8K acquisition?

BTW IIRC Helium was supposed to be 1 stop "faster" than Dragon and Gemini was 2 stops faster than Dragon so only 1 stop difference with Gemini and Helium and that one stop "native" advantage might be partially mitigated if one shot at 8K and finishing at 4 or 5K which would theoretically reduce the apparent noise as well allowing a similar ISO.

(Phil or One of the other experts could chime in on that point, please - I haven't really studied the subject that much or been able to do any comparisons).


https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/ready-or-not-here-comes-8k

 

[Andrew Reese]

Resolution is such an interesting topic if you step back and look at the big picture from above...

Alexa Mini LF will be probably the most popular 2019-2020 camera until DSMC3 comes out. The Alexa Mini LF at its highest resolution setting can only shoot 4.5k @ 60fps (ProRes 4444 XQ) and 2k @ 90fps. Furthermore, the Alexa Mini I believe has been out for 3-4 years before it was updated this year (correct me if I am wrong) and I expect the Alexa Mini LF to last for about the same time frame. If Arri isn't concerned about pushing resolution then that means something to my eyes.

If you all have seen Phil's recent post comparing Monstro to Alex LF you can see that resolution (8k vs. 4k) did not even become a factor in overall visual comparison as there were many other factors much more pertinent to the visual feel and quality/acuity of the image. Until our deliverables become standard at 4k/6k/8k resolution (not 1080 or 2k), then there is no need to keep pushing resolution as it is clear Arri can still be a leading major player with 4k/2k res. I can't see Netflix and others requiring 8k if Arri is not producing 8k it is just that simple.

I agree with 8k coming to tv and the monitor realm (it is actually already here) but the costs of such Tv's and Monitors are so large most average consumers (especially individuals not integrated in some form of media production) can't come close to affording this technology at its current price point. We are also going to see 5k-8k resolution soon from Canon and Sony DSLR/Mirrorless sub $5000-$8000 camera bodies within 1-2 years. Pro-Sumer / Consumer level market will jump at increased resolution as a new marketing wave, but color science, gradability, bit-depth, noise patterns, dynamic range, highlight retention/rolloff, etc. will still be the driving force (i.e. The Arri vs. Competition Debate) for high end production. Until an 8k TV can be purchased for a reasonable dollar value in an average home, then Big Box TV/Film industry has no need to continue to push resolution as it is clear you can make one hell of a nice picture with a Alexa, Dragon/Gemini, Varicam, etc.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[DC Chavez]

This might help you out- except for the ARRI question..

https://vimeo.com/273153412

 

[Mike Kushner]

I have a Gemini and I find it can be really noisy as compared to an older, Epic X that I own. I don't have a Helium...but if you don't need a low light setting and are not planning to shoot mostly high speed in 4K or smaller, then I think Helium or Dragon would be a better fit for you. Too bad Helium won't shoot 120 frames with the full sensor and downsample in camera to 4K. That is what kept me from buying Helium. I don't want to cut my lenses angle of view in half just to shoot high speed...but I think you would like the picture better than Gemini if you want it clean with less noise.

 

[Drew Thomas]

I went from an epic w helium to Gemini and couldn't be happier. I have never needed to finish larger than 4K DCI though so YMMV. Biggest advantages for me that I've noticed personally:
-less cropping for higher frame rates
-significantly less noise than helium in LL mode when rated at higher ISO. Blows helium away.
-more dynamic range in standard mode, at least a stop more in the highlights than helium, honestly it feels comparable to Alexa Alev 3 sensor in that mode which I love
-no green shift, and to my eye, more pleasing colors in general, feels a bit more organic and less clinical than helium (subjective of course)
-less intensive on the computers in post, though surprisingly, at least to me, data rates aren't much better, because I've found I need to run a lower compression to get the most out of the sensor compared to helium
-great with anamorphic due to the extra sensor height
-way less rolling shutter. even windowed to 6k on helium, Gemini handily beats it.

I've found the best way to get the most out of my Gemini is doing a good manual black shade and run the compression lower because you don't down scale as much as you do with helium.