Epic vs Alexa Producer Arguement

[Bruce Allen]

Björn, you're totally right... that is an excellent battle plan for a RED production.

But you can see why this is going to be a hard sell vs an Alexa, right?

I think it's good to talk about it honestly here because RED is listening and Graeme is on this thread, so hopefully this is useful info for them.

Let me play "Skeptical Producer" - usually I'm the guy trying to convince them to use RED, so I know the game well, sadly

1. You get a DIT worth the title that does have a red rocket and that cares for quality and does not only want to move alexa proress files from the card to hard drives while he surfs the web.

2. The DIT should do your "on set" preliminary grade and spit out proxy files for offline. preferably you tell him to do DnxHD files since those work in all offline platforms.

Skeptical Producer: "That sounds like we have to hire an expensive DIT with special gear and it'll take a lot of time and hassle, compared to just shooting SxS cards with an Alexa."

3. Your offline editor should know how to export trimmed r3D with tails from his edl/xml in RCXP and he should also make sure all needed cuts are in the folder that he names "TO GRADE" that he leaves together with the XML/ EDL on the source drive.

Skeptical Producer: "I don't know about you... but the offline editors we work with are creative, non-technical souls who have no interest in learning another app because some stupid camera expects them to. I mean, seriously, they're making $1000/day and they have to stop earning for a while to learn REDCINE-X? Or we have to pay them or their assistant for extra time? And what they screw it up? Versus with Alexa, the editor can import the DNxHD from the camera, edit, then export DNxHD from the Avid?"

4. You make sure your colorist is not left in the land of making film transfers. You need somebody that has a mind set for dealing with files more than filmstrips. And if he says that he first want to convert the material to DPX files or such then you find another guy. If that new guy says something in line with, -"nice to grade from the raw files" then you target him.

Skeptical Producer: "Well, our colorist we have a relationship with and who has a great eye is more of a film guy. Now we have to find a new guy with a good eye who likes dealing with RED RAW. Great. And we have no previous relationship so he'll cost more. Why not shoot with Alexa, which has a similar workflow to film?"

5. This is important. 5k raw r3d's is great superb file format. But and this is a big BUT if your final delivery is HD or 2k or SD you should interpolate the material to 2k or HD before sending it to the VFX guys, they do not need 5k DPX 16 bit or something as crazy to work form.

Skeptical Producer: "OK, so now there's another rendering step... and you're telling me that it's going to be a 2K finish anyway? Why are we shooting RED and not Alexa again?"

If you make sure the 6 steps above is covered. Your producer will save a lot of money using Epic instead of Alexa and I'm sure your picture will look better in the end.

Skeptical Producer: "Well, it depends... all of these steps add cost and time. So maybe they offset the savings you get by shooting RED."

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[steve green]

Bruce, Nice to have the skeptical producers reply to all my statements before I ask them.....your right, aside from his trust in me it'll be a tough "sell".

 

[Bruce Allen]

Yes yes, it's just all about that personal relationship. I would stay the heck away from any biased sales pitch stuff. The best argument I can think of it (apart from smaller, lighter camera, ability to take 5K stills for print) is:

"If you want Alexa, no problem - let's rock it! However, I absolutely love the Epic camera, know it backwards - and promise to do everything humanly possible to make this experience awesome for you if you decide to trust me on this. Sure, there are some minor workflow things to deal with but it's a working solution. Here's my plan. Let's have some fun."

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[steve green]

Yes yes, it's just all about that personal relationship. I would stay the heck away from any biased sales pitch stuff. The best argument I can think of it (apart from smaller, lighter camera, ability to take 5K stills for print) is:

"If you want Alexa, no problem - let's rock it! However, I absolutely love the Epic camera, know it backwards - and promise to do everything humanly possible to make this experience awesome for you if you decide to trust me on this. Sure, there are some minor workflow things to deal with but it's a working solution. Here's my plan. Let's have some fun."






Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

That's the way I'm going, I also like the stills aspect you mentioned.

This forum is such a great resource with so much knowledge and experience to access. Thanks to everyone who took the time to help me out, I'll post how things turn out as I should know in a few days.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I haven't really outlined any sort of workflow except for transcoding the R3D's to "Avid friendly" files.

One thing to consider is an SDI recorder such as Pix, Samurai or Hyperdeck. Would give you instant DNxHDs. Although better to have the DIT do it if they have a rocket.

 

[Evin Grant]

I can't wait till Premier 6 gets more of a foothold, then they can just drop R3Ds onto the timeline and rock away just like prores/dnx-hd.

 

[Michael Brennan]

"If you want Alexa, no problem - let's rock it! However, I absolutely love the Epic camera, know it backwards - and promise to do everything humanly possible to make this experience awesome for you if you decide to trust me on this. Sure, there are some minor workflow things to deal with but it's a working solution. Here's my plan. "

With such a statement you are taking a stake in the responsibility of the post process.
Will you be around to protect your back?

By all means back your judgement and stake your reputation on the shooting style, lighting lenses ect as these are in your control.

I've always worked by getting the producer to "sign up" and understand the risks of all the potential pitfalls of a shoot.

It is not my problem if sony, arri, red kit have technical issues.. it is the producer who ultimately must take responsibility for new flakey kit and new workflows because is he who wants us to shoot digital.

It is very dangerous for a producer not to be fully onboard and taking responsibility for such an important part of the process, as they will use your "promise" for their political expedience.

Remember, it is the client who wants us to shoot digital and they need to understand that some aspects of the technology are still evolving.
In this way it is a shared journey.



Mike Brennan

 

[Ketch Rossi]

This statement couldn't be further from the truth Ketch, little insecure there- aren't we...:beer:

Ha ha, me insecure? I guess Jacek you have learned nothing about me in this past 5 years...

But glad that you say this is far form the Truth, as it pleases me that you didn't mean it that way, because I respect you and use your product with pride, so it would have displeased me to know that you disregard an intelligent and informed statements as the one I made, with a tag of Fanboysm, which would disregard all matters of any given tough, and making a product to appear better just out of Fanboysm which of course with me that could not be further form the truth as well...

 

[Marc Wielage]

Sorry Marc, while I know you are right, and made the same exact points which were well known to me when I posted this, I comletely disagree with your assestment, as to me is not about future proofing something as an ICONIC, I actually want to be able to enjoy seen the movie, not teh GRAIN...

There are grain-management solutions to minimize or even eliminate the grain. Jim Cameron has used Lowry Digital in Burbank for several of his projects, and has publicly commented on how pleased he was with the results. So were the Bond producers for the restoration of 20 of the James Bond films, and Disney with all their classic animated features.

But the studios have to want to devote time and money if they want to make their older movies (particularly 1970s films) clean and pristine for Blu-ray or 4K release.

 

[Francis Kenny]

Every single monitor manufacturer is releasing a 4K display.
TV will soon be 4K.
What happens when you shoot 1080P and the world passes you by?
4K TV is at the doorstep. Everyone is releasing 4K displays and two have 4K delivery systems ready.
Does the work ever expect to sell "future forward"?
EPICs are being used on a ton of projects without incident. I can attest to that fact.
I've used the Epic on Gunhill, Justified, and a remake of Steel Magnolias without one single incident.
We shot 5K, but made 1080p dailies and saved a bundle. When going back to 5K "what a great difference!"
Even with a television delivery building in that resolution makes a big difference.
REDlogFilm is the visual equivalent of LogC.
You can shoot Epic without a DIT with ease. I do so on Justified. The cameras are tiny and mounting them has endless possibilities.
More EPIC footage has been shot so far on The Hobbit than on any TV series for a whole season.
It's fun to work with.





Francis Kenny, ASC
ASC Board of Governors
ASC Membership Chairman
AMPAS
2012 ASC President's Award Winner
Director of Photography of Justified
Epic used on everything I shoot.

 

[Steve G]

[/QUOTE]Who do you want to support? EPICs made in California (USA) or something made by underpaid kids for one dollar a day living a third world country[/QUOTE]

What is the "something" you are talking about ? Also, are all the parts for the epic made in USA ?

 

[Mark Toia]

I just wish RED EPICs spat out a 2k & 4k PRORES file in LOG...
Then this augment wouldnt been taking place....

RED cannot ignore that the R3D workflow (even though very easy for some of us) is the only thorn in its side for the non educated.

I'm still flag waving for this puppy!

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...NxHD-MODULE-who-wants-one&highlight=4k+module

 

[M Most]

What happens when you shoot 1080P and the world passes you by?
4K TV is at the doorstep. Everyone is releasing 4K displays and two have 4K delivery systems ready.
Does the work ever expect to sell "future forward"?

I would humbly suggest that fear is not a particularly effective motivator, especially for a producer trying to put together a show for a studio, network or cable entity that only wants HD, is only paying for HD, and isn't really interested in things that don't exist yet. Pointing out advantages is valuable. Attempting to spread unfounded fear is usually not.

The camera is smaller, faster to work with, and has twice the resolution of the Arriflex Alexa.

That's much more effective.

Who do you want to support? EPICs made in California (USA) or something made by underpaid kids for one dollar a day living a third world country.... Think about it. Promote those who have the courage to rebuild this country.

Germany is not a third world country last time I checked. Playing the patriotism card is fine for a very limited group (i.e., Americans, and in this case, specifically Californians - of which I am one..). The rest of the world likely couldn't care less, and in fact, might be more inclined to use gear that is NOT made in the US.

Bottom line. The Epic is the best looking image making camera on the market.

That cuts to the case. Start and end with that.

 

[George Butterfield]

What is the total cost breakdown between the two systems? It is a Producers job to have an answer to that question .... unless he's got a grant.

 

[conrad gaunt]

I don't believe 4k is the future, that number surely is arbitrary..

I don't believe imax can resolve much more than 720p.. although the homeopathy crowd will maintain it works

I don't think ive ever even watched tv on a HD tv actually, at least not one thats displaying an actual HD image..

What 4k? ..seriously..

Only people shouting about it are a few companies with 4k branding attached to their products?

I reckon anybody shooting a good quality HD feature IS future proofed, everything else is marketing bollox based on the usual argument.. petty fears

If 4k is important, it will be because monitors get better and bigger, rather than projectors imo

can't wait to switch on my tv in 2years? 3years? 4years? 5years? 20? lol! you tell me fellow futurologists ..and view 4k broadcasts? or is 4k for theatre and disc?

I don't buy it, resolution is just the new marketing battleground (or is it the old one reused..) .. and its as banal as ever

for post flexibility, 4k is useful.. but resolution doesn't seem to be an argument here in europe, where Alexa is king..

 

[Michael Moreno]

I just wish RED EPICs spat out a 2k & 4k PRORES file in LOG...
Then this augment wouldnt been taking place....

RED cannot ignore that the R3D workflow (even though very easy for some of us) is the only thorn in its side for the non educated.

I'm still flag waving for this puppy!

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...NxHD-MODULE-who-wants-one&highlight=4k+module

Something along that line must be in the works
Red likes to drop things with a lot of thought put into these days ; )

 

[rod bradley]

Not sure if various "module" direct to Pro-res of DNxHD were mentioned. They are out there. Among them the Pix 240. So I don't think the transcode, instant edit should be that much of an issue. And if the need arises the orig 5K raw is there -- and if there's a shot that needs reframing, just transcode that.

I also am of the school that there are many horses in the race that can finish with pride in tact. And yeah, well, the tick off boxes I suppose, can be a good manipulative device to convince some, but then advertisement/propaganda is by its nature reductionist and simplistic. As frankly are most movies.

 

[sergio arguello]

I don't believe 4k is the future, that number surely is arbitrary..

I don't believe imax can resolve much more than 720p.. although the homeopathy crowd will maintain it works

I don't think ive ever even watched tv on a HD tv actually, at least not one thats displaying an actual HD image..Youve never seen anything in Super35 either but thats what we shot Music Videos on 10years ago

What 4k? ..seriously..

Only people shouting about it are a few companies with 4k branding attached to their products? Post production companies demand it for CG effects

I reckon anybody shooting a good quality HD feature IS future proofed, everything else is marketing bollox based on the usual argument.. petty fears -Poor attempt at presentation of an actual debate

If 4k is important, it will be because monitors get better and bigger, rather than projectors imo

can't wait to switch on my tv in 2years? 3years? 4years? 5years? 20? lol! you tell me fellow futurologists ..and view 4k broadcasts? or is 4k for theatre and disc? well if you can presently afford an IPOD3 youll already see 2k so it well on its way!!

I don't buy it, resolution is just the new marketing battleground (or is it the old one reused..) .. and its as banal as ever---tell chris Nolan who swears by RESOLUTION

for post flexibility, 4k is useful.. but resolution doesn't seem to be an argument here in europe, where Alexa is king..

are you including the boys at RSA ?

 

[Jon Shaw]

I just wish RED EPICs spat out a 2k & 4k PRORES file in LOG...
Then this augment wouldnt been taking place....

RED cannot ignore that the R3D workflow (even though very easy for some of us) is the only thorn in its side for the non educated.

I'm still flag waving for this puppy!

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...NxHD-MODULE-who-wants-one&highlight=4k+module

+1,000,000 for this. Would make life much easier when working on docco projects

 

[Felix van Oost]

I don't believe 4k is the future, that number surely is arbitrary..

I don't believe imax can resolve much more than 720p.. although the homeopathy crowd will maintain it works

I don't think ive ever even watched tv on a HD tv actually, at least not one thats displaying an actual HD image..

What 4k? ..seriously..

Only people shouting about it are a few companies with 4k branding attached to their products?

I reckon anybody shooting a good quality HD feature IS future proofed, everything else is marketing bollox based on the usual argument.. petty fears

If 4k is important, it will be because monitors get better and bigger, rather than projectors imo

can't wait to switch on my tv in 2years? 3years? 4years? 5years? 20? lol! you tell me fellow futurologists ..and view 4k broadcasts? or is 4k for theatre and disc?

I don't buy it, resolution is just the new marketing battleground (or is it the old one reused..) .. and its as banal as ever

for post flexibility, 4k is useful.. but resolution doesn't seem to be an argument here in europe, where Alexa is king..

Probably one of the most rational and realistic posts I've read on RedUser lately.

This whole "4K is now" mantra is a really a bit of a stretch at this point in time. It seems like one of the main reasons for shooting 4K is out of fear - this whole concept of "the future is 4K, you have to keep up", yet we don't even know whether 4K will indeed be a standard in the future for TV (and if so, when?). This also begs the question of where you have to draw the line - should we all be shooting in 8K or 12K because that may or may not be the standard 10 years from now, and we all have to make sure our work can still be displayed?

I keep hearing that 2012 will be the year of 4K. Wasn't last year also supposed to be the year for 4K, according to Jim? There still isn't a proper distribution network in place for 4K content, there is no demand from consumers, and there aren't any TVs on the market right now which can even display 4K content for a somewhat reasonable price (to the average consumer). Most people don't even get cable HD yet (either for lack of availability or for lack of desire / need to upgrade), what makes you guys think that 4K distribution is just around the corner? In Europe at least, directors are choosing cameras like the Alexa for their value at the present time, not based on the fact that the image is bigger (obviously, 4K also isn't the only reason the majority of you chose RED, but that's besides the point). I'm much more in agreement with Steve Weiss' opinion with his Zacuto Camera Shootout - why the hell should they be doing a 4K test if 4K delivery is still quite distant in the overwhelming majority of cases? Cinemas are only just completing the migration to 2K digital projection, they sure as hell aren't going to be upgrading to 4K for at least a few more years.