Epic STREAK FLARING

[Mark Pugh]

FUD? Do you really think camera owners, and old-time Red camera users would stick their neck out without a reason?
They just want the Epic to be the best camera possible.
No-one at Red is calling it FUD.

There's nothing bizarre about the fact light will bounce back up off a dashboard, when you're driving into the afternoon sun. It's going to happen. Some dashboards will reflect more than others, but good ones are textured, or matte black, or angled right.
Some people put carpet mats on there to fix the issue if it's there, but not to spread FUD.
Some people haven't driven thier Epics "into the sun" yet, but it doesn't mean the sun, or the dashboard aren't there.

It's a fact that the issue is not the same on all kinds of cameras, acknowledged by Deanan:
"We've got our optical engineering guys looking at it.
We can recreate it on epic and red one (and some other unnamed cameras) but it's different on each".
Don't know yet what an final recommendation will be."

He doesn't deny the flaring comes exactly from where the discussion is pointing:

"If you want to mask the frame yourself, then by all means...
However, please be careful around the OLPF."

Jeff, I took the time to test where the problem is coming from, and found a temporary solution.
Not a great permanent solution, but I've largely fixed the problem for my cameras. I'm good to go.
The before and after pics that I posted in post 61 of this thread show a dramatic difference in the amount and hardness of flaring in a flashlight held just out of the top of frame.
There's nothing doubtful or ambiguous in the results of that test, to me.


Here are the pics again:

BEFORE

AFTER

You can see that the flashlight caused virtually no actual lens flare. The flare is basically 100% due to bounce off the OLPF mount.

I've also done tests panning across the sun, with the flaring majorly improved with my fix.

So the problem is easily fixed, friends, but I think it'd be best for Red to fix it themselves with a little re-design of the OLPF mount, or threads like this will probably keep popping up.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I said I was bowing out, maybe that's not for the best... I still have too many unanswered questions. But first a few points to clarify...

I totally believe everything you're saying. I believe you. I believe you!

The thread reads like FUD due to the insignificant number of actual complaints and no specific details about various configurations. No camera comparisons, etc..

Who's sticking their neck out? When you have a problem and you voice legitimate concerns, that is not "sticking your neck out". If I was getting streak flares in shots with bright lights just out of frame, in more shots than not, I would be pulling my hair out and screaming. I was one of the few back in late '07 who raised a ruckus over the "black streaking" on the original RED One (pre-X) cameras. This was fixed via firmware. Then, of course, the black-sun issue. Fixed with MX, but turns out was also super-easy to fix in post, often even within REDCINE-X. Not a RED-specific problem, but something exhibited by a lot of CMOS type sensors. RED learned a lesson there, methinks.

While this flare, or type of flare, can be produced on most any camera I have available to me, of course it's going to look a bit different from one to the other. It's not always "the same flare".

While I totally believe you and others reporting this flaring are indeed having these issues, have you considered that that others may not? Even under virtually identical conditions? Believe me when I say this, I have to try and I mean really, really try, to duplicate this sort of flaring on my EPIC. In most situations, panning across the sun doesn't produce the effect.

I would LOVE to get my camera together with a camera like yours or from someone else experiencing a lot of difficulty with this. Do side by side tests. Tests with different lenses, light control solutions, you name it.

My EPIC isn't any worse for me than the RED One or other cameras I have. In the few instances where I have replicated flares like this, I can drop the RED One into the same position and get very similar flares.

I don't doubt the shiny frame around the OLPF is a huge contributor to the problem -- in fact the final piece of the chain that introduces the flare onto the OLPF or sensor block. But I don't believe it accounts for the problem as a whole. So far, I'm of the opinion that other conditions need to be met first in regards to the optical path of the camera system in order for that shiny piece to come into play. So, this is where I question other aspects of your setup. Not saying you're doing anything wrong... But I'm looking for info like which lens(es), apertures, that sort of thing. What is it about some configurations that seemingly has people fighting with this nearly every time they have any light source shining at the camera? And yet for others it hasn't presented itself in any real-world shooting, even for those who "drive into the sun" quite regularly? Ultimately, a masking or replacement of the shiny piece may be in order, especially for those where it fixes the problem. But I guess I'm still trying to figure out why the problem seems to vary in severity and most EPIC owners I know have not encountered it... And I don't know too many (any?) who haven't done back-lit-by-sun shots or shots where large lights are just out of frame, dealt with large, bright windows, etc..

So, create the flare -- flashlight or sun or even with multiple sources. Give me all the other details of your setup; lenses, focal lengths, apertures, etc... I'll set up the same shot and let's compare.

I'm near Denver, CO. To my knowledge, I'm still one of the only two EPIC-M's in a 600 mile radius. And the other M in town doesn't seem to be experiencing difficulty with this either. Should have another few EPICs arriving in the area shortly -- like in the next few days, both X and M models. I guess we'll see what comes up...

 

[Matt Uhry]

I've had this problem a few times on my Epic - Unexpected strong diffuse flare from bright area in top of frame ? I'll look into a solution. My grips have some blackwrap tape that might do the trick ? Does anyone have the dimensions for the baffle?

My camera's in Lake Forest this week ( #501 )... If there's an official factory fix I'd be happy to go first and test it out.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

 

[Chi Ying Chan]

We are using 2 Epic and 2 MX in a 14 weeks project.Last week (week four),we shot in studio with lots of torch as practical light source,we found these flares in both sides ,up and above when we move the camera,pan and tilt.
I end up switch back to MX and its gone.
Last day i finally have time to check the footage,and i noticed in day exterior scene,shots facing bright sky with dark object in foreground seems looks a little bit wash out.Don't know is it relate to this "gate issue".
But the flare is definitely there!

Regards
Chan Chi Ying
DP HK

 

[David Battistella]

I have been watching this thread closely and it is full of useful information from RED users exchanging ideas. This is one of those threads that needs to be read from begining to end. It's not pesky users wanting to crap on RED, it's hard core pros who are seeing an occasional problem pop up, are discussing it professionally and are informing RED and showing examples of shots or situations that are posing problems and preventing light from hitting the sensor in an optimal way.

Deanan has posted and Jarred has posted asking Doug Underdahl to help find a solution.

This is a thread that is FAR FROM FUD. It's actaully REDuser working in a productive and positive way for everyone.

David