Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic STREAK FLARING

Status
Not open for further replies.
Adam Eden said:
Has anybody else experienced this? I was shooting a circus tonight and was getting weird internal flares on the footage and it didn't matter what lens I used.

I have had this complaint from a client who rented the camera from me a couple of weeks ago.
I was shooting with my RED ONE MX also with the same set of lenses tonight and did not get any flaring like this at all which makes me believe there is something wrong with my EPIC M.

The flares are vertical smears of light from both the bottom and top of the frame and whats really strange is as you can see my panning the lens is really no where near the source light.

This happens in all modes. ie 2k, 4k and 5k.

Shot on Arri/Zeiss Light weight Zoom, T2.6 (Wide open). 4H HD , 400 ISO. This fault has been reported to me with clients using Ultra primes, CP'2 and Super speeds, and i can easily re create the same looking footage with any light source.

See link below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtVp0D0Zbzo
Click to expand...


I had a flare like that, but I liked it! And yes, the light source was just off camera, and it was 2 bare 4ft kinflos bulbs.

I was also shooting 4K HD but at 800 iso, you can see it at around the 30th second on this video...

http://vimeo.com/28490746
 
This thread is a little goofy.

We are on our forth EPIC feature film - and six weeks into a three EPIC camera episodic television series - we process over 75 terabytes of EPIC footage a week - the "streak flaring" mentioned in this thread is not any more common on the EPIC than other cameras.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
This thread is a little goofy.

We are on our forth EPIC feature film - and six weeks into a three EPIC camera episodic television series - we process over 75 terabytes of EPIC footage a week - the "streak flaring" mentioned in this thread is not any more common on the EPIC than other cameras.
Click to expand...

Not sure what to say, but this is not what tests show that we just did for a DP preparing for a six week feature (Epic vs Alexa). Although a matt box with hard matts got rid of a lot of it, this does need to be looked at (I'm sure it is). Test was point camera at florescent fixture, tilt up to put the fixture just below frame and see large vertical streak (other tests where done as well). This thread led to the tests.


Bob Torrance
Robert Torrance Camera
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
the "streak flaring" mentioned in this thread is not any more common on the EPIC than other cameras.
Click to expand...

Very true but, I have months worth of Epic footage and I have seen the issue. It is rare but it dose pop up. It is usually solved on set because wysiwyg on the monitors. Having said that, it is a problem and a fix would improve the camera system as a whole.

I agree with other posts that Red need to engineer a victory here.
 
I agree it's there. Sometimes it's making the image look really cool and enhancing the photography. Other times it's misplaced and a bit distracting in which case you have to find a solution to correct it. Having said that, I've always been able to find a solution, for the most part. At the end of the day I think it would be best to just get rid of it so there are no issues to have to work around (especially in 3D). I also think it happens less with zooms than when shooting with primes.
(but it still looks cool sometimes)
 
Here is another suggestion. Someone should call Clairmont Camera in LA and ask them to look into it the flare issue and possibly modify the area in question. Denny Clairmont and company are renowned for their camera modifications and they own some Epics that they rent out so they could easily look into it. They have modified Alexas, Sony F35's, completed 2 perf conversions for Arri's and countless other modifications.

Here is their latest mod: http://www.fdtimes.com/news/clairmont/clairmont-in-camera-alexa-filters/

I think they would be a perfect choice to develop so kind of fix if Red is not going to do so.
 
Anyone from RED have any more to say on this yet?
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
This thread is a little goofy.

We are on our forth EPIC feature film - and six weeks into a three EPIC camera episodic television series - we process over 75 terabytes of EPIC footage a week - the "streak flaring" mentioned in this thread is not any more common on the EPIC than other cameras.
Click to expand...

+1000

I've done my tests and I still maintain what I've said above in this thread. Not unique to EPIC and not an issue. I can duplicate these flares, no problem. In every instance where I can replicate the flare, I can control it with proper flagging, a decent mattebox setup, etc.. I can duplicate it on other cameras, including DSLR, HD, m4/3, etc..

In my 3 months of shooting EPIC, I have yet to see these flares pop up in normal shooting. In fact, I have yet to have them at all unless I TRY to replicate them. And every time I've tried to create them, it's been because I'm thinking of this thread or hear similar comments floating around. Every instance where I have re-created them, I think, "why would I shoot like this? why would I not control this?".

Yes, the flares do seem to be augmented [potentially] by the shiny surface around the OLPF. OK, whatever. The EPIC has less shiny bits in there than many other cameras. And that shiny surface only tends to cause such flares when light enters the lens on an extreme incidence angle. Flag it.
 
Adjust flags or even having massing flags on a camera whilst flying a steadicam....

Yeah right!

I always have a proper matt box on.

I am not going to accept this as normal, there will be a solution from someone.. I have ordered some flock to get a lens/ camera tech to line my sensor to see if that helps.

I have had to resort to shooting certain lighting conditions on my RED ONE instead.. and i am not happy about that considering I have forked out $58K for a camera, and another $8-10K on bits for it.

The RED ONE MX doesn't have this issue in the same lighting conditions.
 
I'm sure RED is looking into this but it is very real. Example; young lady walks into warehouse looking for someone. Camera is low, as she approaches camera it pans with her. As she passes, the shop lights are visable in the bg. RED ONE, no problem. Epic M, flares from bottom of frame as the camera pans by. Can't flag it. Being that this is the same sensor as the R1, it appears that the way the sensor is mounted is causing the problem.

Perhaps the dragon update will fix this. BTW, the problem was easy to spot.
 
Not trying to argue or make light of anyones' situation here. But I have not encountered this on my EPIC without specifically trying to set it up. And I shoot in a lot of difficult lighting situations, often with no control. Outdoor, harsh sun-lit locations, EFP style, etc.. I'm flying the EPIC on steadicams, jibs, cranes, even on a zip-line pulley system, dangling out of hot air balloons, etc.. Have not encountered an issue with these types of flares, have only been able to get them when I TRY TO.

Just going to throw this out there, but perhaps not all EPIC-M cameras are created equal? Perhaps there are differences in the surface or material surrounding the sensor block on some cameras? I highly doubt this, but I'm wondering. I can get these flares when I really try. And I have a much easier time duplicating the same type of flaring on other cameras. The Panny GH2 is a great example of a camera that can produce these flares with minimal effort. Or at least I can on mine, especially when using Nikon F or PL glass via an adapter or any lenses that produce an image circle larger than the sensor, especially those that can pass light at sharp incidents in relation to the sensor plane. Not to pick on just one camera here, but I can produce it on others as well... If you guys have an EPIC that you feel is having serious issues with flaring, more so than any other camera in the exact same situation, perhaps you need to have RED take a look at it? I know, not easy when you're half a world away....
 
A major production I'm working on just chose the Alexa over the Epic at the last minute. This thread was one of several factors. RED needs to address this immediately or risk a repeat of the infamous "overheating RED ONE" fiasco. I can already see people asking me a year from now, "Does your Epic have the flaring problem?".
 
Guys.
This discussion is bizarre.

The issue has been acknowledged, earlier in this thread, by Deanan, as being real.
It's not imaginary, and it's not limited to only some Epics, as it's a result of the design of the Epic OLPF mount.
The flaring doesn't occur the same in the Epic exactly the same as any other camera. That was acknowledged by Deanan also, after his own testing.
So Jeff I can't see why anyone would need to send their Epic in to read for testing, or to prove a point.

Deanan said they are working on a solution, though he can't say what the solution is right now.
That acknowledges that it's something worth fixing.
 
I recently shot a commercial in a restaurant and battled it all day long. Primarily from windows that were just out of frame. My gaffer and I were pulling our hair out on a few set-ups, getting flares we had never seen before from sources that shouldn't be causing them. Like many who have commented here we are experienced folks who know how to protect a lens. This was not normal. It didn't kill us, but we both noticed it repeatedly and, in some cases, I had to reframe and re-block some action to minimize it. Very much not imaginary. I have not encountered it on every Epic job I have shot, but that does not diminish its existence.
If you have not encountered it - great! If you like it - Good for you! But a very real phenomenon that needs to be addressed. I have no doubt that the folks at RED are all over this and we will have solutions in the near future.
 
Mark Pugh said:
Guys.
This discussion is bizarre.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is.

The issue has been acknowledged, earlier in this thread, by Deanan, as being real.
It's not imaginary, and it's not limited to only some Epics, as it's a result of the design of the Epic OLPF mount.
The flaring doesn't occur the same in the Epic exactly the same as any other camera. That was acknowledged by Deanan also, after his own testing.
So Jeff I can't see why anyone would need to send their Epic in to read for testing, or to prove a point.
Click to expand...

Well, considering Deanan made two posts to this thread and I've re-read them more than a few times. Again just now, actually. No where does he acknowledge any "problem". He acknowledges that they can re-create the flare or similar flares on the EPIC, the RED One and some other unnamed cameras. OK, so what? I can do that too. Their optical engineers are thinking about it so they can offer a recommendation. Really, go back and read his posts. I think you're reading more into them than what is actually there.

I'll wait to see their recommendation, but I think I have a pretty good idea what that recommendation will actually be....

It's fitting that Julio mentions the "overheating RED One fiasco". That's exactly what this is. One or two reports of a RED One overheating in the early days. Cameras not actually overheating, but some with faulty temperature sensors that were triggering an alarm too early. And yet, the camera was branded with an overheating issue for over 3 years and still going. In fact, I heard just the other day that "the RED One overheats". WTF? Sorry, it's a sore point for me. I regularly shoot in the desert in southern Colorado, Arizona, etc.. Believe me, at 115~124 degrees fahrenheit, the crew expires long before the camera does. I shoot in extreme cold too, but that's another discussion altogether.

This thread wreaks more of FUD than fact. Already got two reports in this thread that masking off the shiny bits around the OLPF didn't solve the issue and that's not including the guy who just tried the black sharpie. No one is making an active effort to log the effect and lighting conditions under which it appears. Angles, distances, intensities, lenses used, etc.. Has anyone checked their sensor alignment? FFD setting? Is it possible that the cameras having the flaring issue have a sensor that sits slightly forward or slightly back from where the sensor sits in other cameras? Not saying the FFD/ Back focus is off, but perhaps a couple microns makes all the difference in how the reflections line up with the edge of the sensor or OLPF, given the shift in tolerances between the mount, sensor block, the shiny piece, etc..

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this discussion after this post. I'm shooting 30 to 40 hours a week on EPIC in nearly every lighting condition imaginable. Have been for 3 months now. I'm not having an issue with this... Sure, I can re-create this flaring effect, or something very similar to it, if I try or specifically set it up, but the EPIC is no more susceptible to it than any other camera in my arsenal.

And yet I seem to be contradicted by posts like Jeff Garton's... I have no reason to doubt him, but it's like he's using a complete different camera or something. I believe the reports of people who are battling this... There probably is an issue somewhere, but nowhere in this thread do I see any comprehensive lists or accounts of the hardware used or other pertinent info. IMO, there has to be more to the equation than just the EPIC with a piece of shiny metal around the OLPF. Other factors in the optical path are having an effect and I think this needs more rigorous investigation. My EPIC has the shiny bit as well and I don't have the uncontrollable fits of flaring... To me that tells me something is being overlooked. What else do those with the issue have in common? Perhaps there really is something different between cameras. Or perhaps something different between complete camera kits that varies with different lenses used in tandem with that shiny part around the EPIC sensor.

There are over 1000 EPIC cameras in the wild now. And the only significant report of a flaring issue is right here in this thread. A thread with less than 20 participants and now 200 posts as of this one. OK, there's a little bit of smoke... Where's the fire?

I don't know what else to say....
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top