Epic Stage 3 - I am worried

[Rob Castiglione]

Thanks Hans. That is a pretty persuasive point of view.

 

[Mark Pugh]

That no Stage 3 Epic is delivered this year was obvious, wasn't it? You know Red - you don't?

You, or someone, should have posted all this advice in November.
Red is in control of sending out the 30-day notices to take delivery of Stage 2 and 3 cameras, thereby determining speed of delivery.
If Jarred says Stage 3 shipping will start early Dec, it can only be based on the fact that the very last Stage 2 notices went out at the beginning of November.
It was a fair assumption that low serial number Stage 3s would be notified soon to return their camera quickly, or be disqualified from the stage.
Some made decisions based on that assumption, including selling the rest of their Red One kit.

I feel that it would be in Red's interest not to let Stage 3 drag on.

 

[Alexey Datsenko]

We can say a lot of words but reality is we need to gather the patience for 3 month. March is a good month. April and May not so good

 

[Mark Pugh]

March may be good for you. July may be good for someone else.
The sooner Stage 3 starts, and the sooner Stage 3 owners know roughly when their number will come up, the sooner those customers will feel in control of where they are heading.

 

[axel ebermann]

Sid,

Not quite true.

First of all it is not all that unheard of that vendors give their clients a timeline for their purchase.
Especially in the professional market, where it is understood that your customer has to have some sort
of a basic business plan.

The idea is that it is not you vs. them but some togetherness that creates a bigger and better whole
for everybody involved.

Plus there are several things that have been changed in how the Epic was released. If you release a 'light'
version of a camera - that was initially announced to be released after the delivery of Epic-Xs - while a large number of
established customers are waiting for their cameras - you will see some long faces.

Alas although I empathize with your dilemma. You're effectively asking Red to look out for your business ahead of their's...It's unrealistic. That's what stages 1 & 2 were about.

 

[axel ebermann]

Scott,

I also got used to waiting and buying stuff ahead. After waiting for my first Red One viewfinder and monitor
for over six months with the camera acting as an overpriced doorstopper (sort of...) I order stuff as soon as it shows up
in the store and hope I will get it at one point in the distant future.

I am sort of used to that. Can't say that I like it though.

The true problem is that camera life spans are getting shorter and shorter. Which makes it harder and harder
to recoup investment. And if I get my camera years after I planned on getting it, it makes my life difficult because I am
a filmmaker and not a professional 'camera part leverage broker'.

Speaking of the killer deal:

It is a very good deal indeed. But the guys at Red are brilliant businessmen and nobody put
a gun to their heads forcing them to offer it. They had their reasons for doing this - and not all
of it is altruism.

So while I am thankful for the trade in program I am increasingly annoyed about this attitude
"you have to shut up and take whatever comes because it is a killer deal".

Never been very good at shutting up anyway. Already got me in trouble in high school
when I nailed a dead fish head to the headmaster's office door

Just for perspective... as I usually do not contribute to these threads...

Think of those of us who put down $5K.... over 1.5 years ago an sat patiently. I just got my camera 2 weeks ago and am still waiting for my Canon Ti.... NOt to say anyones suffering is lessened, just as point of perspective and taking the long view. I had $6300 to my name when the Stage 2 deal was offered, and 2.5 weeks into it I sent red a check for $5000. Again, April 2010.

Please do not flame me... And this again, is not to minimze the suffering. But it is a waiting game and they are, as Jarred alluded to, giving all of us a KILLER deal.

 

[axel ebermann]

Hans,

Nothing new here.

But I cannot help the feeling that
a lot of Red owners are increasingly sounding like
the midwest housewife that gets a beating on a regular basis and now
starts to look for reasons why she is actually being slapped around...

Just so she has a story at hand in case anybody might ask her about the bruises.

Axel, I'm at Stage 3 as well. I opted for it because it is a very generous offer by Red and I have the time that I can trade for the price difference.

Yesterday I shot an international commercial with my old non-MX RedOne and a Phantom Flex. I can assure everyone that my old RedOne out-performes the 150k Flex in almost everything except the fact that the Phantom can shoot 1000 fps at 2.5K ands is a tad more light sensitive. I'm in no desperate need of a new camera. My RedOne is doing just fine. And in the rare case I need another camera I rent. As I did recently when I shot a promo with box champion Felix Sturm on an Epic M because I needed a lightweight 100 fps camera on a steadicam. Nice camera BTW...

Stage 3 is for the patient people. The rental guys who desperately need the newest toys for their hungry clients can go the Epic M route. The less desperate rental houses went the Stage 2 route. The private owners/filmmakers can go the stage 3 route, saving even more money.

If you are a rental house and claim that you are losing customers because Stage 3 is on delay you are in the wrong business, IMHO. If you are a producer/filmmaker and think that the delay will harm your business then I wonder how all the competition who rent survive?

I'm fairly early in the stage 3 line but I never thought of getting the Epic-X before March/April and won't be surprised if it will be early summer. Deposit is paid, all the accessories like Bomb EVF, Media, etc.. are already patiently waiting. It reminds me of the years 2006 - early 2008 when I waited for my RedOne. I can recall well how naked, how mediocre in some ways and how superior in other ways the RedOne was. When I'll get the Epic-X it will be a working camera right out of the box with play-back and all the other features I naturally now have with the RedOne. This is going to be e new Red-experience.

That no Stage 3 Epic is delivered this year was obvious, wasn't it? You know Red - you don't?


Warm Regards,

Hans

 

[axel ebermann]

All right. I am out of this thread. I needed to vent and with Jarred gracefully and quickly answering
I think my voice was heard.

Thanks everybody for contributing.

 

[David Battistella]

You actually nailed a fish to someone's door?

Wow.

That's intense.

David

 

[Elsie N]

You actually nailed a fish to someone's door?

Wow.

That's intense.

David

That's criminal.

Taping, or even some type of water soluble glue would have been o.k. But a nail? Assuming the door was wood, well, that's just not right.

 

[C.H.Haskell]

The news of stage 3 delays is very unfortunate.

 

[axel ebermann]

It was his office door. The message was "the fish stinks from the head" you know ?

You actually nailed a fish to someone's door?

Wow.

That's intense.

David

 

[David Battistella]

It was his office door. The message was "the fish stinks from the head" you know ?

That's hilarious. I know the message...

Don't go killin' any dead fish over the holidays Axel.

The EPIC is worth the wait. (i know many have said but it is actually true)
Waiting is no fun.

David

 

[Erik Franzén]

Scott,

I also got used to waiting and buying stuff ahead. After waiting for my first Red One viewfinder and monitor
for over six months with the camera acting as an overpriced doorstopper (sort of...) I order stuff as soon as it shows up
in the store and hope I will get it at one point in the distant future.

I am sort of used to that. Can't say that I like it though.

The true problem is that camera life spans are getting shorter and shorter. Which makes it harder and harder
to recoup investment. And if I get my camera years after I planned on getting it, it makes my life difficult because I am
a filmmaker and not a professional 'camera part leverage broker'.

Speaking of the killer deal:

It is a very good deal indeed. But the guys at Red are brilliant businessmen and nobody put
a gun to their heads forcing them to offer it. They had their reasons for doing this - and not all
of it is altruism.

So while I am thankful for the trade in program I am increasingly annoyed about this attitude
"you have to shut up and take whatever comes because it is a killer deal".

Never been very good at shutting up anyway. Already got me in trouble in high school
when I nailed a dead fish head to the headmaster's office door

But... that's the point. You didn't have to take the deal -- you could've opted out and said: "Thanks but no thanks, I'll wait until stage 4 is shipping." and that would've been fine. No one is pointing a gun at your head either, forcing you to elect for stage 3. It just happens to be so that you did and that comes with the inevitable waiting time.

I don't really see the problem...

 

[Frazier Nivens]

I am thankful for Stage 3. I would like to pay for the complete package before the end of the year in full for Stage 3 to take advantage on my taxes for this year. I've Asked my rep if I can do this, haven't heard back yet. I know the balance depends upon evaluation of the camera. If I can just pay the balance this year instead of next it would help.

It would be a nice Christmas if Stage 3 initial shipments begin before end of year so I can at least pay now instead of next year. All I ask is the option to pay this year and then ask for my camera return when it's time and Red is ready for my camera.

Thanks to all, Merry Christmas.

 

[Ivan Cortazar]

Scott,

So while I am thankful for the trade in program I am increasingly annoyed about this attitude
"you have to shut up and take whatever comes because it is a killer deal".

I LIKE IT

ALEX THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR EXPRESSING MANY OF THE FEELINGS I AM SURE A LOT OF REDUSERS ARE SHARING, INCLUDING MYSELF. Lately between the extremist fanboys and other circumstances I rather not mention, I've felt like it is difficult to express the feelings in this forum without the fear of being "banned" or smashed by some other resusers, so I appreciate your honesty in speaking out.

I consider myself an early adopter, even though my number is 2894. I waited for more than 6 months since I put the deposit for the Redone but I had been following the red development since the very beginning until finally I had the guts and put ALL MY SAVINGS into Red back in 2008 and I quit my full time job to start my freelancing new life. I am extremely grateful for what Red has done and love their constant revolutionary ideas. Thanks to them, I was able to start building my new career. But lately there are several things that are extremely disappointing. And that really hurts as I consider myself a fanboy from the very first day I got my red, and I have been "selling" the red product ever since.

I know RED is a business and therefore the Extended and unexpected EPIC-M program and now the Scarlet and the stage 4 and hell yes, the titanium canon mount instead of the Al, sorry that one it's just hard to swallow . I understand they can't wait for all the stage 3, 3.5 to start shipping stage 4 even though it is not what they promised back then. Probably by now not many people are buying the full retail price of the M so they need to open to the stage 4, and can't wait until the stage 3, 3.5 is finished as there maybe people with their reds locked for several months. I get that.... but... stage 2 and 3 are way behind from what we all thought it would be. And now there are thousands of Epic Ms and soon Scarlets out there, and that's also something most of Stage 2 and 3 didn't expect to happen.

Red has given more that what they promised many times, but it has been short on many others as well. So as Alex said when affects your business workflow it is really frustrating. I understand also the frustration of the Stage 2. But there is no need to be, "Well, look, I was screwed up because I had to put $5,000 a long time ago and I've just got my EPIC, so you better shut up, because you are in much better situation" There is no need for that. If I would have been giving the opportunity to put $5000 deposit back then and have my EPIC now I would have done it. No hesitation. I know it is easy to say it, but honestly I would have done it. I did it before with my Redone way before it was the camera it is right now, way before they were shooting big hollywood movies, way before Scarlet existed so why wouldn't I do it now? Stage 2, wasn't an option for me, so I am still grateful for the option 3. I know eventually we'll get the EPIC and then will be happy and then the Dragon sensor upgrade will come and the drama will begin again. "hey I've just got my Epic, and it's obsolete already?" I know it. I've seen it. But it is the nature of the business and technology, we can't blame red for that but in the meantime I am planning on quickly saving $5000 extra for the dragon upgrade plus $3700 for the pro module but sorry I digress.

Lastly, today I am visiting my friend who just got the Scarlet. Never owned a Redone before. I'll bring my EVF and pray it works on it. I am very happy for my friend, but as a fully dedicated red owner it is difficult not to feel just a bit frustrated, jealous and left behind. Anyway I am here with my Red ready to ship back. WHEN ARE WE STARTING STAGE 3?????

As a side note if anyone doubt of my Red "fanness" this is the front part of my business card I have been giving to hundreds of people.

 

[Rob Gardner]

You know, I was debating whether or not to go for the stage 3 deal for both of our cameras, and it became clear that with this deal we would upgrade two camera systems for just over $20,000. If you stack this up against what I have paid to upgrade previous camera systems in the past, it is nothing less than astonishing.

Now I have to wait. Now somebody else gets in front of me in line. Big deal. I have two camera systems working, I am not stalled in any way, software upgrades will continue while I wait, and when it is good for Red, I'll get the new cameras. The gift we are being given is huge. The corporate symbolism of the full trade-in is huge. No one has ever done that in our industry that I am aware of. Let's give this issue a rest.
Rob Gardner

 

[Clint Childers]

I'm waiting for stage 3 also, but for everyone that is complaining about having to wait for the awesome deal stage 3 is.... you can always buy a stage 4 Epic like everyone else. No one's stopping you from doing that, so please stop complaining, it doesn't make anything move faster.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

First and foremost I think we need to remember that everyone's situation is different. What might not be a big deal to one person might be catastrophic to another.

I think what I have learned throughout this journey with RED is that delivery of products is not an exact science. With Red One it was a long road but because of the challenges that RED had trying to deliver something that didn't have too much precedence, I think it was easier to cut them some slack, although they certainly took their share of attacks. With Epic and Scarlet, there are a lot of variables at play. You have the stages program, the Epic-M, Scarlet, and Dragon perhaps on the horizon. Stage 3 in particular is very challenging for RED because it involves significant resources to manage the exchange. I honestly think the best approach when dealing with any of this right now is to have a Plan B. It's too difficult to know exactly when things will ship, when you'll have a complete shooting package in hand. For example, selling your R1 accessories to help pay for a Stage 3 Epic upgrade could leave your R1 unusable. Perhaps a better Plan B might be to keep shooting with your R1 and accessories until you know for sure where things are at for Stage 3 and have an accurate shipping estimate. I've always felt that a camera is not real until it's in your hands. It's not part of the business plan until it's been tested and ready for battle. I do understand that for some, this kind of approach may be difficult. Perhaps the only way to pay for the upgrade is by selling off accessories now. So I will default to my opening statement.

I think this is a difficult situation for RED, as well as the customers. It may just require some patience from both sides, as hard as that is for both parties. I know RED would prefer that everyone has their camera immediately. Not like there's anything to be gained by holding back cameras. They seem to be adding more resources daily, so you have to think the process will continue to improve, and they will only become more efficient at delivering.

 

[Stephen Gentle]

It must really be tough to be stuck with only having the second best cinema camera in the world to shoot with.

All those other companies are so much faster when they give 100% trade-ins for their old models. Oh, wait...