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EPIC Stage 1-4 Value Comparison Chart

A

Axel Mertes

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Hi All,

I justed wanted to get a clearer image of Jim's offerings from the October 30th, 2009 announcement.

So I put together all known info of measureable value (Jim's cell phone number is unmeasureable here, sorry... :P).

Except for the travel charger I think I found all prices among the thread.

Anyhow, to me stage 2 looks like the potentially best deal, as you can still use the old RED ONE as a second camera, a rental unit, a "do the dangerous shot with it" unit, or just as a family piece as Jim suggested.

The nominal total value saved when keeping the RED ONE is the best for stage 2, but not really far from stage 3. But remember: Stage 3 means giving up on your RED ONE totally, so no more income to generate from it.

In numbers the advantage is just 200 US$. If you can afford the extra payment of 8500 US$, keep your RED ONE and try earning the 8300 US$ from it. Further, that price does not include the value of returning a "trade-in RED ONE" back to RED. This can easily cost you a couple of hundret US$, which reduce the total value you have to gain from your free RED ONE after getting the EPIC.

I think the whole plan is designed to have as much poeple as possible keep their RED ONEs - and I fully understand it.

Jim,
if you are reading this:
I proposed a way to make money from trade-in RED ONEs to Stuart in PMs. I am about to leave for that show, though, if there is interest, let me know... :)

All you guys can now think about this number game to adjust your plans.

I hope it is as helpful to you as it is to me.

Cheers,
Axel

RED_EPIC_Value_Comparison.jpg
 
Fascinating, but one thing. The Tattoo isn't really the Epic. I do not believe after the beta program has it runs that these users get an epic. It's a different camera, the tattoo. It will not look the same, it will not be the same, correct?

Also - once Scarlet is available, do you really think the RED One will be worth 8500? I'm skeptical about that number. We'd have to see the real Scarlet numbers to know that answer.
 
Mark,

Tatoo will have the same hardware and firmware as the eventual Epic. So yes, it is the same camera, just with a different colorscheme.

As to what an used, executed R1 will be worth, well, only the future will tell us. Since it doesn't have moving parts like a tape video camera, and records in a format that will be current for quite a while, one could argue for it being valued at above 8500 USD. But we will see.

As to the 8.500 in Axel's chart, that is just the number you come up with if you do the math according to the oct 30th statement.
 
Mark,

you may be right, especially about the housing of the Tattoo cameras. I am personally a little bit unsure if I would love to have a silver camera over a mixed color camera over a simply black camera. But thats more of a style and taste question.

The Tattoo cameras will be of very high value for the poeple involved in the beta program and their deeply personal connection to RED.

I wish I can enter that group. But as its not up to us users to decide on who is participating, I can only be sure to enter Stage 2 at least. If I can enter Stage 1 is a combination of "will they accept me" and my "pocket money" :)

Clearly I am interested in becoming a "1st" again. No question. I just understand they are selecting. And we all don't know yet how many they will select. For a good beta test you do not necessarily need hundrets of cameras. My camera is 110. So how sure can I be? I like surprises, though...

What thrills me is not just being a 1st, but more the technical achievements build into the camera components and what we can make out of it. Many things on my list, some of which RED ONE is unable to fulfil...

Cheers,
Axel
 
Martin,

you are right about the way I came to value the used RED ONEs at 8500 US$ once the EPICs are out.

In fact, the value is significantly higher, as nearly all RED ONE users will have gear around that makes sense only for the RED ONE, but not so much for EPIC. That value must be put into the equation, but is really hard to argue on. If I can keep my RED ONE for a real value of 8500 US$, I also keep value on my special RED ONE gear, that was originally about the same or more value as the body in most cases I know of. If I trade in my RED ONE, I loose the value of that gear. Reselling it in parts my bring a few bucks, but market may get flooded with this at a given time.

The rental values for RED ONEs will shrink a little bit when EPIC hits the market. But I've seen people renting out their RED ONEs for less than 200 Euros with all equipment. How low should that go?

Unfortunately RED ONE is to heavy to become my new holiday travel camera in the end - even if it deserves this...

Cheers,
Axel
 
Updated the two Stage 4 alternatives, trading in a RED ONE or not. Just for completeness.

Axel
 
You might also want to add a second option for Stage 2: Selling your Red One privately. If you make at least 8700, you get the same (financial) benefits as stage 3, but get your camera earlier. Also: you can sell the whole camera, including all accessories such as hard-drives, mounting options, lens mounts, etc.
 
Martin,

as you are right with the hypothesis to sell the camera privately will bring you camera earlier, I see some problems:

1. You can not sell the camera for a high price, as its trade-in value has vapoured somewhat.
2. You can not sell it before buying the EPIC upgrade as of Stage 2, because one could still use your "not yet executed" RED ONE for trade-in on an EPIC-X brain only Stage 4. So you must sell off the RED ONE privately no earlier than having ordered the EPIC-X.

In the end you need to find a customer for your RED ONE quickly, or you have to finance the time in between the two buying / selling operations.

I think its too confusing to add this to the chart, as I just wanted to summarize the options given by Jim right now. I do not think that selling off the executed RED ONEs privately is the intention that Jim has had in mind when announcing that deal. In fact I was one of those who asked how we can get hands on EPIC-X without necessarily loosing RED ONE.

Cheers,
Axel
 
I would even say that getting Stage 2 is the best offer, and Stage 1 is being awarded.
Awards can not be paid with money, they are brought to you by third parties.
Thats how I feel about it.
 
The best offer would be R1 upgrade to M-X without any conditions

and later if you feel that Epic features will fit better your needs then

you could trade in your R1, you could keep your R1, etc,...

That is what I see as the best option but unfortunately it's not (yet) on the horizon...
 
About a year ago I predicted that the modules required for a "red one" sort of functioning unit would be about $5k.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21963&page=2

Interesting that when you add up the modules included with stage 2 it comes out to $4350. Upgrade to the pro I/O module, and take out the batteries (which I wasn't expecting) and that's really close! From Jim's response I thought I was way off.
 
Thanks for a nice chart Axel,

Another important part of the equation is of course, how much extra money will you be able to make with that early stage 2, or very early stage 1 Tattoo... And of course the potential earnings from the kept and upgraded RED ONE continuing to make money for years to come.

Depending on how much use/rental your cameras will have, this added value could be substantial.

I am stage 2 for sure, and if they call - I will put a Tattoo through some rough winter filmmaking as soon as possible.
 
I don't understand your numbers at all. They make no sense. For stage one, the total saved should be 0. There is no savings for stage one, except maybe the difference in the cost of Epic modules.

Stage two has a savings of only $8500, plus the value of your used Red One, plus price difference of modules.

Your numbers seem very wrong to me.


Dusty
 
Guys, just remember that once You opt for ANY of the stages - the RED ONE number will be marked as EXECUTED. So if You decide to sell the RED ONE afterwards - the potential buyer would have to accept that he can't trade it in, nor can he use it to get discount on Scarlet, etc...

I think Jim did this precisely to prevent any "smartbutts" out there trying to make some quick cash out of this program...

What You have failed to account for is the fact that while everyone else is waiting for their chance to get the Epic, the Stage-1 owners will have their cameras in high demand and will probably pay them off before the program enters Stage-2 or 3...

For me the "value" of Stage-1 has absolutely nothing to do with money. Being able to get my hands on the latest state-of-the-art RED technology and to be able to field-test it and provide valuable feedback that will have an effect on the final shipping Epics... ...You can't put price-tag on that...

Just my 2 cents...

:devil: Peter
 
Have to Agree with Peter here. Stage-1 is for a select group and I think a lot of people are missing the point of it. Like Jim said in the 10/30 announcement, "The TATTOO program is not cheap. You will NOT be able to trade in your RED ONE. You'll keep it because you love it so much that you could never part with it. The RED ONE serial number will be marked as "EXECUTED" internally at RED so it can never be used for trade-in at any time in the future. But you will forever be on the RED "A-List". STAGE ONE is for HARD-CORE RED users. You make money with your cameras. You recognize that being 1st IS the best deal. You know who you are."

For TATTOO program members and even for many in Stage-2, the other huge factor that seems to be getting overlooked is the RED One Mysterium-X upgrade. For TATTOO guys, not only will they have the hot new camera that everyone is dying to try out, but they will also have a freshly upgraded RED One with the new sensor, after sending in their camera and paying for the upgrade, of course.

For me, the TATTOO program is about testing and abusing the prototype cameras in any way I could think of. If I had one, I would try to break it (without physically breaking it). Like Leo's evil tree and build 16 type breaking it. But all sorts of shooting conditions from in-studio to the peaks of 14,000ft mountains. All to provide feedback on how it all works, how the image holds up, etc..

The upgraded RED One with M-X sensor can go out and continue to be the money-making workhorse. And it will rise above the other competition out there, as it will be the new and improved camera on the block until the Stage-2 guys start getting their competing cameras.

Being selected for Stage-1 is not just a great deal, but it's a privilege and an opportunity that includes an assigned duty.
 
EDIT!! I got some names mixed up, sorry! All taken care of now... so here is the post as it should be:

In response to Dustin Cross´ post:
Look carefully at the numbers again: and at this http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=501380&postcount=6

STAGE 1: Pay 28K for a TATTOO camera that comes with a nice bundle of modules (You´ll not get everything at once, you need to be patient, etc etc) + it´s only for a select few... probably out of reach for most of us.

So yes there is SUBSTANTIAL savings for Stage 1: The added value of the "extras" modules etc is. 8750US$ alone + You get to keep your RED ONE (and it has a theoretical value of 8500$, which might be a realistic resale value). And you can upgrade your R1 for 4500$.

I am not going through all the alternatives, but I can´t find anything wrong with Axel´s chart or numbers.
One might disagree on his evaluation of a RED ONE at $8500, to some it will be worth a lot more, others maybe less (depending on how they use it or if they sell it).

If you value a used RED ONE at 0 $ it will be different.

The stages, what they include, price, if you can trade in RED etc. etc is all here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=501380&postcount=6
 
Eirik,

I disagree. The difference in modules between Stage 1 and Stage 3 is only $3500. Stage 2 is even less. I think the value of a Red One with upgrade will be about the same as the price of a S35 Scarlet and most likely less because it has no warranty.

Stage One costs $28,000. Stage Three costs $10,500.

With a base cost of $28,000 for EpicX Stage one saves you $0 and you get to keep your Red One with a value of about $4000 (my opinion). So I would give you a savings of $4000.

I just don't understand how this table is showing Stage Two as saving money of Stage Three. It won't.


Dusty
 
Dustin is ignoring the opportunity costs.

Dustin, your error here, and it is a huge one, is that you are saying that "Stage 3 costs $10,500." That's hooey. Stage 3 costs $10,500 AND YOUR RED ONE. Your RED one will be worth at least $10,000. I mean, geez, a used HVX can go for $4000! So, while I believe that Stage 3 is a deal, it is NOT $10,500.

My question is how closely will the film shot on the upgraded RED One match with the Epic-X. If it is essentially indistinguishable, I'll go for Stage 2, keep my RED One and have it upgraded. If it isn't, then I'll go for Stage 3.

It all depends upon the footie.

Stephen
 
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