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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic render...

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I find some of the comments and reactions on this thread to be childish, others to be elitist, others to be showboating for their peers, others to be seeking to be appear as heroes to the “Center of the Production Universe” (L.A.), others seeking to build their business by strutting their unique and unusual knowledge, others to be egotistical in that they actually think they have a corner on the knowledge field production ergonomics, others simply protecting their turf - and a few actually doing what RED User is designed to be for – the collective input and constructive sharing of ideas, concepts, experience, and knowledge.

Let me be blunt: Epic and RED One are not just Los Angeles cameras. True there is a lot of production in and around the Los Angeles area, and true the productions there get a lot of press and are often high profile, but there is a vast universe of professional production going on all around the world – and RED One (and Epic) are world cameras. There are tens of thousands of motion media professionals scattered around the world who are experts on camera usage and ergonomics, work on top-level features and television, and could basically care less what happens where the rubber supposedly hits the road (L.A.). They’re not second-class citizens who need to be talked down to with a “Let them eat cake” Bourgeoisie to Proletariat attitude. They also collectively buy exponentially more total RED products than the L.A. area production establishment. The rest of the production world deserves a lot more respect than I see exhibited on this thread.

This is no place for genre bias, elitism, disrespect, and infighting. A little knowledge is dangerous. More experience and knowledge usually engenders respect for others, and an open mind. If knowledge is taken correctly, the more someone learns the more they should realize they don’t know. There are people here who get real brave behind a keyboard showboating for their peers – and say blunt and uncalled for things that they would never say to others to their face.

Now back to Epic:

RED One, and Epic, and Scarlet are closest in technology to a DSLR, moderately close to a video camera, and only faintly close to a traditional film camera. Technology driven media convergence has drawn professionals to RED camera systems from four industries: film, television, video, and still photography. As such, those professionals, and the inherent utility and flexibility of RED cameras, determines that the needs of various professionals who are buying RED cameras are diverse – thus in wisdom, RED has (and is) designing their camera systems to be scalable, flexibly, and adaptable. The concept is simple: start with a central heart (chip, sensor, buses, mount, etc.) and through a wide variety of accessories anyone in any genre of industry can build the camera outward for each successive project. If that scenario doesn’t exactly fit the union dominated, crusty, elitist few who ironically buy the least camera equipment but squawk the loudest to demonstrate for everyone that they supposedly on top of the pecking order, well IMO that’s just tough. If I owned RED I’d be designing my products to sell to the highest common denominator who buys the most equipment – the vast pool of non-narrative, non-L.A. imaging professionals who are the huge silent majority - on this board at least.

Narrative cinema is but one division of digital cinema, which is in turn a small percentage of the overall motion media business. The production world doesn’t revolve around narrative cinema and it also doesn’t revolve around L.A. I think its time for any here with an L.A. elitist attitude to resolve to check your egos at the door of RED user and acknowledge that there are tens of thousands of pro workers in this industry who can help you to expand your minds, skill sets, and businesses.

Epic is a work in progress. This render isn’t “the perfect camera”, but then again it has a lot of well thought out concepts. It’s getting there. RED is in the business of selling camera equipment. Flexible equipment with a high utilitarian can simply be used in more production scenarios and genres – thus enabling more sales of equipment. The broader the utility, the higher the potential sales quotient. If you in-build the utility and ergonomics of a digital cinema camera system around the needs and wish list of one small portion of the motion media industry, guess what, you’ve just diminished your sales potential to the rest of the industry. But if you design a system with a central heart that is buildable outward with accessories to whatever you need to shoot, then you’ve not only kept a bigger percentage of the industry happy – but you’ve also increased your sales potential.

I think its time for some here to back away from the crack pipe for a reality check. There is a diverse array of professionals buying and using RED cameras, they all deserve respect, and RED needs to operate as a smart business.

I’ve put my money where my mouth is by buying multiple RED One cameras and a slew of accessories and lenses. I’ll also be buying multiple Epic and Scarlet cameras. I’m getting real tired of others who are presumptuous enough to think they are speaking for all of us when they yipe, bitch, and complain about features of the cameras for their own little niche or geographical location of this industry. They don’t speak for all of us…we can speak for ourselves thank you.

I’ve been blunt, but let me say that I do respect everyone who works in the overall motion media industry. Respect is a 2-way street…and I think its time for some members here to exhibit a little respect for others in this industry.
 
Many here want Epic to be a great alternative to the Arri 435. Many more hope for something like an Arri 235. Why can't we build just one camera that has all the best features and handling characteristics of both?

I have to wonder if Arri gets calls from customers asking them to add sound capability to the 235 (and make it dead silent)... or to make the 435 lighter and more "handholdable". Maybe their customers wish they could change formats and aspect ratios with the touch of a button? How about a new film load that records one hour at a time?

No camera can do everything for everybody... except maybe Scarlet. :-)

We'll keep trying. But we are not motivated by mocking, taunting or disrespect. We are fully and keenly motivated by our supporters that appreciate our efforts and encourage us to continue to improve on their behalf.

We don't know everything. We are learning every day... because we want to.

Jim
 
Jim,

The citing of the design of the 235, Aaton XTR and others as design example is merely to illustrate examples of the best in camera ergonomics. They are limited by the physical demands of film rolls, mirror shutters and optical viewfinders which I think should make them easy targets for the Epic to unseat.

I don't want you to make the EPIC in the form of a 235, it should be better.

<for Gibby>

Everybody here has the utmost respect for you Gibby, I'm not sure why you seem to be taking offense. A great camera designs would be of universal benefit to all users.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
No?? Know of any other 5k cameras around?

IQ will not be the most important factor in Epic's success in high dollar movie/commercial/TV production!

Unlike the Red One, the Epic will not have to prove it's IQ. It will be assumed that the IQ is better or as good which is already at the top of the game.

Strangely, despite my criticism of the Red One's ergos it is it's small size and portability that has in many cases, been the deciding factor in choosing it over a competing, more expensive and perceived higher IQ camera.

The question then becomes why would those people who would choose the Red One for size over a camera they perceived to have better IQ choose the Epic over a Red One?

The answer: A better/faster shooting experience, IE ergonomics.

Jim,
I'll apologize in advance for Brook, he's sorry, and really didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings.

I'm very glad to hear the control panel is removable. That's awesome!

I know you don't like the idea of the power/data on the side but for the intended market (Pro Cinema, right?) we always have cables on the side!
One solution might be to make the drive ports flush like the XLRs and have "L" connectors for them, you'll have to have these for the EVF/LCD regardless.

The back is the #1 place we have problems with setting up the Red One. If you have to park/dock the control panel there, no problem, it's removable. At least give us an inch of metal on either side to protect it when it's rolled back for up angle shots.

Gibby,
I hear you, but I was under the impression that the Epic was the camera designed to take over the movie industry. I did not make this up, even the name "Epic" is a movie reference. This reminds me of the saying...

"Jack of all trades, master of none."

Elitist or not the film industry (and Hollywood, CA) are used to having their tools made for them. You are right, Jim has a larger market to consider and that is exactly what Scarlet and the Red One are designed for.
But the Epic, as far as I can tell, is aimed at the 35mm style of photography used in movies, commercials, TV and music video production. And that type of production has specific needs regardless of where the shoot is taking place. Does that make me elitist? I hope so, I'd like to consider what I and other DP's on this site shoot as elite, but that's for others to decide.

All I can do is try to give Jim and Jarred as much of the real world feedback I hear as possible. To tell you the truth I never would have considered this stuff an issue if I hadn't been involved in a higher level of production than I was a few years ago.

In a large part the credit for that goes to Jarred, Jim and Red! It may seem strange but this is actually my way of saying thanks! It's tough love, I want Epic to be the best fucking cinema camera out there hands down! And I know Jim can do it.
 
Wow, crazy thread!

What's even crazier is that it has 1600 views, but the thread that says that RED IS PUTTING IN GREAT NEW AUDIO CIRCUITRY FOR FRIKKIN' FREE AND EVEN PAYING THE SHIPPING has only 500?!?

That said, I'm unsure why the request to have all connectors on the side of the camera is an elitist LA attitude?

Gibby, do you like having connectors on the back? Do you disagree with any of the substance of Brook's suggestions? Eg as low a CG as possible, low optical axis? How do those things hurt you? I am confused.

The ability to move the controls to the smart side seems super awesome indeed, congrats Red.

Would that happen to be the same controller as on the Scarlet, BTW?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
I have to wonder if Arri gets calls from customers asking them to add sound capability to the 235 (and make it dead silent)... or to make the 435 lighter and more "handholdable". Maybe their customers wish they could change formats and aspect ratios with the touch of a button? How about a new film load that records one hour at a time?
Jim

nope. but maybe if they had ARRIUSER.NET ...
 
3rd. While you can debate 'til the cows come home where the controls should be, the controls on Epic can be removed from the back and mounted anywhere you want... tethered or wireless. That seems to me to be a much better solution than "just" on the front left side of the camera.

This is insanely awesome -- removable control panel. It's so surreal as that was my biggest wish for a feature after seeing the NAB prototype and seeing this latest render. And here it is, an actual confirmed feature of the camera!

On that note, I will stay any further commentary about changes to the camera. I know the RED Team is more than capable of delivering a fantastic camera, and I'm sure they will. Like all other things that evolve in the progression of RED, I am sure this is by no means the final EPIC design and there are more surprises to come.

I hope my above post didn't rub anyone the wrong way, it was not meant to. If so, I offer my deepest apologies.
 
Everybody here has the utmost respect for you Gibby, I'm not sure why you seem to be taking offense. A great camera designs would be of universal benefit to all users.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

Thanks Matt. We're friends and we've worked together in the field. I have great respect for your work, work ethic, and knowledge.

A great camera design will indeed universally benefit all users if it is kept flexible, scalable, and utilitarian enough to be used in multiple genres and sub-genres. I'm all for universality of usage - but not exclusivist features that limit the utility of the camera. It is much simpler for everyone to have a central heart of a camera and give everyone the pathway and accessories to build it outward to almost whatever they want.

That said, we all have our pet genres and sub-genres that we would like to use Epic in. The more Epic is over-designed for one industry the less utility it has for another. In camera ergonomics like everything else, when you gain something you give something up. As you know, I'm one of the guys who works in a wide range of genres, some cine-style, some hybrid cine-EFP, and some EFP. Epic will be smaller, lighter, and shoot higher frame rates than RED One, so I'm naturally anxious to get my Epic cameras and plug them into the productions I do. Just because Epic is 5k, I get the feeling that many here want to stake Epic out as the exclusively narrative cinema camera that they feel RED One wasn't. My post reacted to comments on this thread, and those on the Ergonomics thread on this forum. I've been strapped with production in Alaska but because of a 20 hour per day schedule haven't been able to put in my 2 cents on that other thread - but I've tracked it over the last few weeks. There were many elitist, anti-EFP, and exclusivist comments on that thread, as there has been on this one.

I've made untold suggestions to RED since 2005 - some of which have been used and some which haven't. But I haven't pouted about what wasn't used. RED Team has three years experience now and what they don't know, they quickly learn. They have done and are doing a real good job under unbelievably trying conditions.

Giving suggestions is tricky. Im my experience in dealing with RED, and everyone else I do business with, tact goes a long way when you ask for anything from someone. There are two different very good definitions of tact.

Tact is:

1) The ability to tell someone to go to hell and have them thank you for it

2) The ability to shut your mouth before someone else wants to

If it is ants you're trying to attract you can attract a lot more of them with sugar than salt...

Peace :-)
 
Gibby, with all due respect, there are plenty of people outside of LA who would like connector issues addressed, center of gravity issues addressed and generally more basic functionality from Epic. I dislike LA crews as much as the next east-coast guy, but a lot of these opinions are just functional opinions, and pretty good ones (brooks head-up-his-ass photo not withstanding). Why make a jihad out of it? Lets listen to them and respect them.
Rob Gardner
 
The distance from the PL mount to the bottom of the camera is fixed. Period. Unless you want to throw away the Arri standard and buy all new gear. So the question is how much "rise" is there on the bottom (for shoulder mount) and how far back is it from the mount. Pretty easy stuff. Except for the board stacks. Epic is as short (as in height) as we can make it given the board stacks (and taller is not good). We could make the body longer... but there is no reason to do so. There is no way to raise the back "floor" any more than we have... which is an almost perfect match to a 435. So what exactly are you asking for as it relates to CG?

Jim
 
2.The BNC's are perfect, now add the power and drive connecters below them and farther forward so the camera can be laid completely on it's ass.
If you need to loose an XLR, two is fine.

4. Add a removable V-mount battery plate to the now bare back of the camera. Preferably wired internally but a super short plug would work fine too.

I couldn't agree more with Evin that the power and drive connectors should go to the side (I believe it was posted by Evin and not Casey? I think Casey was just quoted in the post).

IF you would do the battery plate make it exchangeable so those that has goldmount could use that instead.
 


Gibby,
I hear you, but I was under the impression that the Epic was the camera designed to take over the movie industry. I did not make this up, even the name "Epic" is a movie reference. This reminds me of the saying...

"Jack of all trades, master of none."

Elitist or not the film industry (and Hollywood, CA) are used to having their tools made for them. You are right, Jim has a larger market to consider and that is exactly what Scarlet and the Red One are designed for.
But the Epic, as far as I can tell, is aimed at the 35mm style of photography used in movies, commercials, TV and music video production. And that type of production has specific needs regardless of where the shoot is taking place. Does that make me elitist? I hope so, I'd like to consider what I and other DP's on this site shoot as elite, but that's for others to decide.


As I’ve reviewed the announcement of Epic, RED Team’s posts on this forum, the info on the RED web site, and the info in the NAB PDF, I don’t see anywhere a claim that Epic was being designed to take over the movie industry. I see specs (5k, 100fps, etc.), but no exclusive recommendations for its use. Epic can and will be used in abroad array of genres beyond the movie industry.

“Jack of all trades, master of none”? Media and technology convergence since the mid-90’s, and working in a non-union environment, has created a large percentage of multi-skilled motion media professionals who are “Jack of many trades and master of each of them.”. For non-union work, which is the vast majority of work in this industry, being skilled in multiple skill sets across many genres of production is about economics – those people can oftentimes make a better living. This is a business and the days of the union, mono-skilled worker are an anachronism. If someone chooses to go that route, fine, I can respect that, but in my experience, respect from mono-skill workers for multi-skill workers is rarely offered.

Those who work in multiple skill sets, genres, and styles simply aren’t going to settle for just using RED One and Scarlet if we can afford Epic and Epic will enhance the work we do.


Epic is aimed at 35mm style photography in movies, commercials, television, and music videos. But it is also aimed at being used in creative wraps and montages in a wide variety of non-hardlined, non-narrative cinema television programs that are otherwise EFP in style, stock footage acquisition, high-end business media for trade show displays, nature and wildlife production, sports programming creative sequences (high frame rates - think NFL Films), travel television, and on and on and on. A huge volume of those other genres I named have nothing to do with Hollywood, are non-union, are produced by independent packagers, and yet they seek to use a digital cinema camera in their arsenal of kits. Hybrid cine/EFP production is widespread now, indeed worldwide – but you simply don’t see it or experience it if you work in the union dominated, uni-skill scenario of L.A.

Evin, I think its great that you are working in L.A. on narrative cinema sets. I hope the insight I’ve provided gives you a broader perspective of the vast work of professional motion media production outside L.A.

To tie this back into the thread subject a little closer, IMO Epic will be smaller, lighter, and shoot higher frame rates than RED One – thus it will enable more mobility, and flexibility in its usage, not a narrower choice than RED One.
 
The distance from the PL mount to the bottom of the camera is fixed. Period. Unless you want to throw away the Arri standard and buy all new gear. So the question is how much "rise" is there on the bottom (for shoulder mount) and how far back is it from the mount. Pretty easy stuff. Except for the board stacks. Epic is as short (as in height) as we can make it given the board stacks (and taller is not good). We could make the body longer... but there is no reason to do so. There is no way to raise the back "floor" any more than we have... which is an almost perfect match to a 435. So what exactly are you asking for as it relates to CG?

Jim

Nobody here is asking to depart from the Arri 15mm or 19mm studio Rod standards, a move which would obviously be counterproductive. It's unclear to me why that's exclusive with a low CG potential as demonstrated by the design of the Arri 235 and other contemporary 35mm cameras. Is there really no way to raise the back "floor" and move it's cutout forwards ? As I understood it there were few limitations to how a circuit boards could be shaped within reason, Is that wrong ?

Let's consider not just the "body" but how it's going to be used as a sysem with a Lens, EVF and a Battery ( at minimum )

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
Nobody here is asking to depart from the Arri 15mm or 19mm studio standards.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

So I'm asking for some clarification on the CG issue that was brought up in several posts. I don't understand the suggestion relative to the constraints in my last post.

Jim
 
So what Jim is saying is that they can't carve out a shape like the 235 because they have a core block of sensor, circuit boards etc that they'd be carving INTO?

And that the core block can't be changed in shape at the moment?

Sorry if I am just repeating stuff.

BTW, I am still not sure what Gibby thinks about any actual specific design suggestion - eg connectors on the back vs the side?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
I couldn't agree more with Evin that the power and drive connectors should go to the side....

I dare to disagree. It doesn't work well in most underwater housings. Power and drive sockets at the rear are perfect. :devil:

Jim, I approved it. Let me know when to transfer the dough. :biggrin:
 
That said, I'm unsure why the request to have all connectors on the side of the camera is an elitist LA attitude?

Gibby, do you like having connectors on the back? Do you disagree with any of the substance of Brook's suggestions? Eg as low a CG as possible, low optical axis? How do those things hurt you? I am confused.

The ability to move the controls to the smart side seems super awesome indeed

Where did I equate moving the connectors to the side of the camera to an elitist L.A. attitude in anyone? I've done fine with the connectors on the back because I've set my RED cameras up so they weren't a problem. Connectors on the back also work best with my water housings. But It's definitely workable to have them on the side if they don't interfere with the operator movement in using the camera, and if using an assistant they can access them easily. I also think its fantastic that the control panel can be moved and placed where you want. That's awesome.

A low COG is a basic concept of camera ergonomics that any experienced shooter understands, as is a low optical axis. You can find extensive affirmation and camera setups exemplifying exactly those principles in motion in my current thread on the Accessories forum explaining and illustrating my proto testing of the ET Shoulder Mount. L.A. cine-style shooters have no corner on the knowledge of COG, cross axis load distribution, and placement of camera features to enhance ergonomics. Every cine-style and EFP style veteran understands those principles and how to maximize them.

The above said, yes, I do take exception with attempts to make Epic into a fixed ergonomic silhouette of an Arri, with fixed curves and shoulder pad. Quite often with every feature that is fixed into the camera you take away a little ability to re-accessorize it for different usage and genre applications. To be clear, I do agree with many of the principles that Brook discussed in his other thread, but not to the point of eliminating the utilitarian value and flexibility of the camera for different genres of production. What I didn't appreciate in Brook's posts on the other thread was his belittling and minimizing of design features favorable to the EFP industry, and in this thread his tactless approach to expressing his dismay at not getting all his wishes incorporated in this render of Epic.

Brook is a friend of mine, and is very knowledgeable - that's why I included him as a member of my LART team. That said, we don't always agree on technology or its uses, and I think he needs to sometimes think through how his posts will be taken before he posts them up.

This will all blow over, RED is listening to everyone, and I'm satisfied Epic will come out as an excellent camera. I'll buy several Epic and Scarlet. I can say that now because I really believe in RED Team - and i have since 2005. I've owned multiple RED One cameras for a year now and I couldn't be happier with the footage from them - especially now that we've arrived at Build 16.
 
A suggestion... RED should make the camera however they want, then offer a discount price for anyone who wishes to waive their warranty rights. Then they can re-engineer it to suit their personal taste.

It's all about choice, right?
 
I dare to disagree. It doesn't work well in most underwater housings. Power and drive sockets at the rear are perfect. :devil:

Jim, I approved it. Let me know when to transfer the dough. :biggrin:

HAHAHAHAHAHA


But seriously, on a cam like that, to have them next to BNC would be better also for your housing?

Otherwise you need to think of a very clever cable connectors. The most annoying thing with RED right now is the cable connectors sticking so far out in the back.

I bet Pawel doesn't like that either :weight_lift:
 
So I'm asking for some clarification on the CG issue that was brought up in several posts. I don't understand the suggestion relative to the constraints in my last post.

Jim

As it stands the shoulder pad on Epic would put pretty much the entire weight of the camera on the hands in hand-held shooting. This is very uncomfortable and means DPs/operators will not be able to shoot as long or as steady.

If the shoulder pad were to be moved forward (moving mass backwards) the CoG of the built rig will start to move back onto the shoulder of the operator.

Traditional film cameras have magazines that can be used to "Grip" the shoulder and add stability. Ideally there should be as much meat on the back of the shoulder pad as in front.

BTW thanks for getting us back on task.
 
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