Epic > RCX > DnXHD > MC5 > Dark footage?

[Fred Beahm]

Just wanted to update you guys. Everything is going great. I appreciate your help.

I hope to see those features we discussed in a new version of RCX. Automatically select External Audio AND keep it selected, and possibly Audio Output when viewing Monitor Out via RedRocket.

Cheers!

 

[MichaelP]

Thanks for the update.

Michael

 

[Eric Haase]

After a couple years of DITs transcoding footage for mxf, I have heard back from post about black levels being crushed and highlights blown out even though that is not what the scopes in RCX or monitor scopes via redrocket indicate. I performed a series of tests and discovered that checking the option to CONSTRAIN TO SMPTE provides accurate color between the redrocket and avid mxf files. By this I mean the following: grading a clip in RCX and using scopes (either software internal or via redrocket sdi out to a grading monitor) and exporting an mxf/aaf file with the constrain SMPTE option checked will yield same color and luma values on scopes when displayed out from the avid to the same sdi monitor for the rendered clip when it is linked as an mxf in avids media folder.

However, using the contrain SMPTE provides erroneous results when exporting prores quicktimes and viewed in avid or final cut pro. I did not test but image this is also the case for dnxhd quicktimes that are imported into the avid. If anyone has tested this, please chime in.

I do not understand how this is not well documented in red manuals. Achieving accurate color is what redcinex should be all about and the fact that some obscure option deep in the export menu can make or break the footage and is not well documented is extremely frustrating. Maybe I just missed it somewhere.

 

[Fred Beahm]

Thanks for chiming in, Eric. +1 to everything you said, brotha.

 

[Johnny Friday]

with Prores I NEVER get good results. My documented issues in 2010: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...e-x-Transcodes-to-Prores-4444-look-WASHED-OUT

 

[MichaelP]

A lot of times, the issue is due to the QuickTime wrapper, not the codec and it misinterprets the color space and tries to correct it to look good instead of letting the application deal with it as needed.

Michael

 

[Job ter Burg]

If you go to Quicktimes, then bring those into Avid, it will matter how you are bringing them in. You should be able to get that right. However, Quicktime and ProRes is a lethal combination when it comes to gamma.

Also, make sure HOW your are monitoring WHAT. Meaning that if you take a 709 legal clip and play it on a computer screen (set up for 0-255 levels) it will look dull and washed out.

The option to NOT restrain color levels has a purpose too. It basically uses 14% more luma steps (256 rather than 129 - when in 8-bit) to store the image. If you want to do some grading in the video domain (where you would then grade it to 709-legal) afterwards, that gives you slightly more source latitude.

However, if you watch that non-restricted footage on a calibrated monitor, the bottom blacks and the top whites won't show (as they are outside legal range).

So yes, if you grade on scopes and 709-calibrated SDI monitors in RCXPro, then use the "Restrain" option, the SDI outputs of the Avid would match the output of RCXPro. To me, that's the way things should be done.

In theory, if you grade on scopes and 709-calibrated SDI monitors in RCXPro, then export to QT, then import that QT into MC with "709" source levels selected (or '709 video levels' selected in AMA Source Settings), you SHOULD be able to get the same result. Again, I won't vouch for the QT/ProRes combo.

 

[MichaelP]

What he said.

 

[Eric Haase]

So yes, if you grade on scopes and 709-calibrated SDI monitors in RCXPro, then use the "Restrain" option, the SDI outputs of the Avid would match the output of RCXPro. To me, that's the way things should be done.

In theory, if you grade on scopes and 709-calibrated SDI monitors in RCXPro, then export to QT, then import that QT into MC with "709" source levels selected (or '709 video levels' selected in AMA Source Settings), you SHOULD be able to get the same result. Again, I won't vouch for the QT/ProRes combo.

This should pop up when you open RCX Pro. I am astounded that this menu option has literally no documentation aside from the manual reiterating the title of the function. It's so frustrating because you want to say RED workflow is simple and easy, and in reality there are these "gotchas" that are totally undocumented and ignored by RED. Thanks for the post. It reconfirms the results of my tests.

 

[Job ter Burg]

You are very right in investigating and in doing tests, and you have chosen the right tools (Rocket, SDI connections, properly set up monitors).

But none of this is simple, nor will it ever be simple again - or so I fear.

I assume that the reasoning is as follows:

- if you are absolutely certain that you need to restrict to SMPTE 16-235 levels, you can set the option
- if you know what you are doing, you can use the non-restricted transcodes to get some more headroom and footroom when video grading (without going back to the R3D's).
- if you don't know about any of this (and we all know these folks are around), you are likely to not restrict, which gives the folks that need to post your footage a bit more latitude when doing a video grade (without going back to the original R3D's). So less risk to do any long term damage.

It's sort of safe.

Now here's what bothered me: last time I checked, even when you select the SMPTE restricted levels, the black bars on a 2:1 image (inside a 16x9 canvas) would be superblack (0, not 16). But this was some incarnations of RCX ago.

P.S.: I've written a whitepaper on importing and luma level ranges in Media Composer and Symphony. It might help clear things up for those needing to import QT's and graphics into MC.

 

[Eric Haase]

You are very right in investigating and in doing tests, and you have chosen the right tools (Rocket, SDI connections, properly set up monitors).

But none of this is simple, nor will it ever be simple again - or so I fear.

I assume that the reasoning is as follows:

- if you are absolutely certain that you need to restrict to SMPTE 16-235 levels, you can set the option
- if you know what you are doing, you can use the non-restricted transcodes to get some more headroom and footroom when video grading (without going back to the R3D's).
- if you don't know about any of this (and we all know these folks are around), you are likely to not restrict, which gives the folks that need to post your footage a bit more latitude when doing a video grade (without going back to the original R3D's). So less risk to do any long term damage.

It's sort of safe.

Now here's what bothered me: last time I checked, even when you select the SMPTE restricted levels, the black bars on a 2:1 image (inside a 16x9 canvas) would be superblack (0, not 16). But this was some incarnations of RCX ago.

P.S.: I've written a whitepaper on importing and luma level ranges in Media Composer and Symphony. It might help clear things up for those needing to import QT's and graphics into MC.

For me, as a cinematographer, the most egregious part of this is that I dial in a look that I want- that represents my (and the director's) vision of what the footage should look like. We use (mostly) properly set up SDI monitors and look at scopes on the monitor and in the software. The footage gets transcoded and loaded into Avid or FCP. Agency, client, everyone watches dailies and cuts but footage looks darker and more contrasty than I intended because of these issues. It's unacceptable.

 

[Job ter Burg]

And you are a better cinematographer for caring about all this. Seriously.

Demand that your post teams get on board. Might be tricky if they use FCP (very unpredictable when it comes to gamma and color levels as it is QT-based).