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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic > RCX > DnXHD > MC5 > Dark footage?

Fred Beahm

Fred Beahm

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Yo! I'm working on a feature in Seattle. It's being shot on two epics. I'm the assistant editor. My duties entail syncing audio in RCX, transcoding to DnXHD, importing into avid, logging/prepping/binning/organizing for the lead editor. My issue is; The lead editor and post house are saying that the footage is looking dark on their end. It looks fine on my end, via desktop monitor and via sdi out of the rocket on a flanders calibrated monitor. The footage also looks the same on desktop monitors inside of MC5, but I do notice that it looks dark (2 stops or so) when I output via Mojo DX SDI to the Flanders. My question is; what's causing this? Is it my transcode? Is it Avid? Mojo? Is it purely an output issue? I'm tying to pin-point it but can't figure it out. I'm not an Avid guy. :banghead: I despise the program in fact. But, it's what the job calls for. If it was me, I'd be editing the raw r3ds in cs6, but that's not the case here. Can any Avid/Red pros out there help me shed some light on this? The techs at the post house believe it's something to do with my transcodes. I've bumped out the specs that they asked for though, 1080p 23.98 DnXHD 36 8-bit for their offline. I haven't touched any of the color settings, they want the DP's camera settings intact and any color work done on their end. I'm suppose to have a conference call with them tomorrow but I'd like to get redusers opinion before that call. Please & Thank You in advance. :ack2: ~ FrEditor
 
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Do you have constrain to SMPTE levels in the options tab enabled? And on a related note, I would suggest syncing in Media Composer to the BWF files directly as it maintains all the metadata of track info and such, let's you easily sync to mix track only, and allows the editor to match back to ISO tracks if needed.

Michael
 
Michael,

Thanks for your response. Where can I find the smpte settings? I've looked and looked. Is it the Safe Colors menu? I'm in MC 5.0.4. Also, is there a walkthrough or tutorial on how to sync to the BWF files? As far as I know the new RCX copies all of the meta data now. All my meta data seems to be intact after my transcodes have been done. I appreciate you taking time to respond.

Best.
 
Yes, that's the method (I wrote the script for that video)..

Michael
 
LOL. Thanks Michael. I don't think we'll be going that route but I'm still trying to shed some light on what's causing the video to look darker on the reference monitor at the post house. A friend of mine suggested that I should import as RGB and not Rec601/709?
 
Did you create files with the SMPTE setting active and that did nothing, or nothing that was correct? Selecting RGB or REC.709 has no effect on MXF/DNxHD created outside the application as the look of the image has already been baked in to the media. When looking at the footage in Redcine X Pro, are you able to look at it on a scope? Is it legal REC.709 video?

Michael
 
MichaelP said:
Selecting RGB or REC.709 has no effect on MXF/DNxHD created outside the application as the look of the image has already been baked in to the media.

Michael
Click to expand...

Michael, you are right that once media has had its color space "baked in" it won't change. HOWEVER...I have found with Avid that it is CRUCIAL to inform the Avid WHAT THE COLOR SPACE IS OF THE FILE YOU ARE INGESTING. If you pick the wrong color space, the footage will look "wrong" (usually too dark, or too bright). Happens to me most often with GFX. A designer renders his element out in RGB, but we tell the Avid its 609...and it comes in f*cked.

Sounds to me like this could be what is happening with Fred. It may be a color space issue.

Fred, I suggest you give this a shot, to test this theory: export your materials RGB straight out of the Avid. Your vendor may be looking at the deliverables in Final Cut or After Effects...which most commonly work in RGB.

I've had this type of problem before when working between AVID...and other applications.

Unfortunately, I wish there was a way to LABEL Color Space better (if only quicktime did this automatically...like it does FPS, Compression, Codec, and Sound properties).

I'm not positive this IS what's happening with you, but at least now you can check.

Good luck.
 
The post house is looking at the native MXF/DNxHD media that was created. They are seeing it dark, and Fred is not. The import process does look to RGB or REC709 where REC.709 doesn't change anything, same on export. If you select RGB then it will lift blacks assuming graphics levels of 0 and reduce whites assuming graphics levels of 255. But you can't import an MXF file created in REDCINE X Pro, it is copied to the mediafile folder, referenced, then played back. So none of the levels adjustments have any effect on the media.

Michael
 
Hey guys, thanks for your input. I brought my flanders back in today to run some tests with the SMPTE enabled. I'm currently transferring yesterdays shoot of 800GB and burning yesterdays bluray dailies. Once I have these tasks complete I will try another test render and get back to you. I appreciate your help.

Nick,

Just so you know the workflow I'm doing:
Backup Raw > RCX=bin,sync,transcode to 1080p 23.98 DnXHD 36 8 bit, Copy MXF files into the medafile folder, import ALE into MC5, Relink files, log, locators, bin, organize, dailies sequence.
 
I would make one slight tweak to the workflow. An ALE relink to the MXF media directly can work, but does not always link to the audio files. And something loses its further downstream in the process. The folder of AAF files is the file that knows exactly the relationships between the tracks and direct pointer links to the media. After copying the MXF files to the MediaFile folder, import the AAF and they relink instantly with no further massaging - then merge the ALE into those masterclips for all additional metadata.

Michael
 
Thanks for the tip Michael. However I'm not sure exactly how to do this and don't want to mess anything up. Like I said, I'm not an Avid guy. :P Everything seems to be re-linking fine thus far and I see the meta-data in there. Is there something I'm missing? What extra data would come across doing this extra step? I'm all for it and I appreciate the workflow critiques.

A side question with this, is there any way to listen to audio while doing Monitor Out of the rocket in RCX?

I'll get back to you with any further developments. Still handling other tasks at the moment.
 
The biggest issue is not the metadata but whether all the audio tracks are playing back. I have seen issues where they get lost at different points in editorial. ALE is really a metadata/logging interchange format where AAF is also the pointer to the media that got created via the Avid AMT (Avid Media Toolkit) used in Redcine X Pro. The process is simple - once you've copied MXF files to the MediaFiles folder, launch MC and your project. Create new bin, drag and drop all the AAF files that were created into the bin (or Import and select all the AAF files created). Once in the bin, the AAF needs no futher relinking as they know how to connect to the media. Select all the clips in the bin and do a File->Import. From there, click options, then shot log tab - select the last radio button "merge based on known sources" and then select the ALE. All that info is now merged into the AAF created masterclips.

Done. It really adds no time at all to the process you're doing now, and is a much more solid workflow behind the scenes inside Media Composer.

I think the audio is embedded in the HD-SDI - you can de-embed from there - others may be more savvy on this than me.

Michael
 
I just did the SMPTE test. There is a shift in gamma/brightness. I'm going to show this to the post house and see what they think. Thanks a lot Michael! As for the AAF workflow, I'm going to give that a shot here in a few. I've been at it since 7am... Gonna need some more coffee here soon. I appreciate your time and wisdom. I'll keep you posted!
 
Please follow Michael's suggestions. He is right on the money. The proper way to bring MXF created in Redcine-x is exactly as he described.
 
Just to be certain, This radio button? The last one says 'known master clips' when Michael said 'known sources'
http://imgur.com/HUoEC
HUoEC.png
 
Sorry, yes. I knew it was the last radio button, but couldn't remember the exact wording as I was not in front of my system.

Michael
 
Thanks guys. I sent a test to the post house last night and then they told me this morning that they received the same answer from someone else at Red. We've found our answer! Thank you very much for your time and help. As far as the AAF workflow goes, I've mentioned to it to them three times now, waiting for them to make the call on that. I will keep this thread updated. Is the SMTPE option new in v15? or when was it introduced? Is it specifically to help with RedGamma3?

Thanks again!
 
The SMPTE constrain option has been in REDCINE X for many versions now - even before the X Pro I believe. It's not so much attributed to any single color space of the R3D files, but the fact that DNxHD is a REC.709 codec and adheres to the SMPTE color and levels specification.

Michael
 
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