EPIC MX Highlight Rolloff thread....

[António Fagundes]

Brian,

I think that the answered to that specific question has already been provided and discussed here. The camera does not have to stop short of the overload value. This is why: if after you acquire the footage using Red (or even during shooting you set your monitor to view it as how the settings calls it RAW) if you set to view it and grade from RedLog Film/RedColor3 setting, you will see that the overexposed and/or clipping spots will appear just as it will be displayed by Cineon: a Log white. In other words, if you shoot the same scene with an equivalent film stock and scan it for DI grading, both will look the same.

Why? Again, because that combination of setting will present your RAW image from the R3D as a 100% equivalent to Cineon. It does not have any color artifact burned-in, as the magenta situation discussed before on this thread, and the roll-off will look as Cineon will look; both contain images in a Log fashion. Any other color/gamma selection will provide colors interpreted by an algorithm. Sometimes a well shot scene looks on RC3/RG3 exactly how you wanted it. Even Mark said that he used some of the footage on his test as they came out of camera, but that the majority of the footage came from RLF/RC3 with a simple curve he applied on RCX.

As I discussed above, I think that the artifacts are just a by product due to Color Space conversion, which was needed since it will be posted on Vimeo. BTW, that is what Vimeo is doing after the uploading is completed and making it ready for viewing (or as they call it, optimizing it). However, the RAW will not have any of those artifact.

I hope this helps,

This is very good info Luis. Thanks for posting this.

 

[Bill Anderson]

And it's very very unlikely that a camera with "18+"stops DR is going to have poor highlight "roll off". Did I say VERY unlikely.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Yea and Ausies sun has a world wide reputation.

Wanted to come back on what Mr Mullen said about certain old optic capable of showing Halation.
The lense choices is a key factor when you want to determin what specific look or feel you want to achieve, it is not just about the camera you are using or the way you are using it.
In general I find that modern design lenses and coating tend to be more contrasty, and then need obviously more frequently filtrations and or diffusion in a strong highlights cituation.

Maybe this sample from a 60mm Lense isn't perfect, but it was shot with no filter of any kind.
I have the same focal lense in Leica and I know if I did use it on this frame without filtration I would have get much more contrast, no white blow and probably some trouble to get the look desired.

Old contax made in west Germany (Ctr=Click for bigger pic)

I'm surprised the word organic didn't poped up yet.
B.

Brice I love you for posting this. I agree with you that ROLL-OFF and highlights can be very affected by the OPTICS you use. My opinion is that OLDER, LESS CONTRASTY lenses can be very helpful in creating smoother roll-off than some of their modern counterparts. One of the reasons I love CONTAX glass is that they are VERY SHARP, but also LOW-CON, which helps them generate a BLOOMING that is very pleasing etc. Older optics like Leica Rs, Nikkors, Super Speeds, Standards, Hasselblads, old Angenieux's, old Cookes, all have the potential to render in this "ORGANIC" way. I know that word is hackneyed but it works for what we are talking about.

Here is another fantastic "organic" shot from Brice, shot on Leica R:

But hard lighting is a different beast altogether... And I believe Red is not the best option for a hard light film. At least not until they choose to address that problem.

Antonio. This entire video was shot WITH HARD LIGHT. Directed by David Fincher, DP'd by Matthew Libatique. Epic Monochrome. Many of us are optimistic that Dragon will perform similarly in COLOR.

Although, Arri seemed to be quite smart regarding this issue and addressed it before Red did. Its funny because Red and Alexa share the same sensor (only use it in different ways, from what I read, Red takes much of the sensor's power to capture more than 2Ks, whilst Alexa gave that power to DR and color rendition). But I'm not entirely sure this is at all true, but it came from Roger Deakins himself.

António, from what we know, RED designs their own sensors from SCRATCH. Considering how competitive they are with Alexa, I'd be shocked to hear they have the same sensor. Bear in mind both companies have battled in court, so your statement is potentially polemic...and you'll need to provide much more concrete reporting than hearsay to have this statement stand. Reduser is a place to learn and share, and should not be a forum for loose conjecture, especially about important matters like the core of RED's technology.

Going forward, I'd appreciate more diligence before you post something as sweeping and significant as this, especially as it concerns the very "CORE" of what RED "IS". A link to an article, an interview, or anything similarly journalistic would be a good place to start. In the age of the internet, unsupported musings quickly become "fact" so you can understand why you should be much more researched going forward if you plan to address the essence of RED's tech.

Thanks for your time.

 

[António Fagundes]

Nick I said where I heard it from when I posted, Roger Deakins, probably on his forum or on an interview on AC mag. But you can look it up yourself.

If this is a 'shock' to you and the cause of so much concern, I just feel like laughing uncontrolably and it's probably a sign that you need to get out more... Trying to appeal to your sensitive emotional side does nothing for me, sorry.

if you know about black & White photography and the effect of luma values in the perceived image, you know that clipping is a non issue. Maybe that is why David Fincher shot both this music video as well as the Rooney Mara spot both in hard light in black and whit and not in color.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Nick I said where I heard it from when I posted, Roger Deakins, probably on his forum or on an interview on AC mag. But you can look it up yourself.

I found the quote:

The Red camera may have the ability to record at a higher res. than the Alexa but it has less dynamic range and a lower sensitivity. Basically, the chip in both cameras is the same and,whilst Arri has biased it's camera toward dynamic range and colour rendition Red has gone for resolution. From the little work I have done with the Red I would agree that in order not to clip highlights or lose shadow detail, it is best to get your exposure right and that the camera's base sensitivity is somewhat lower than 500ASA.

Source: http://www.rogerdeakins.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?p=10519&sid=d3694f187a9d79f0ea897dbbfb1a1d6e#p10519

If he is trying to say the sensor is literally the same my hunch is he's wrong...

 

[Scott Crawley]

Well yes, both chips employ CMOS technology. Basically they are the same. He didn't say they were exactly the same or even similar beyond that. I wouldn't read too much into it.

Thanks for the link.

I found the quote:



Source: http://www.rogerdeakins.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?p=10519&sid=d3694f187a9d79f0ea897dbbfb1a1d6e#p10519

If he is trying to say the sensor is literally the same my hunch is he's wrong...

 

[Luis Otero]

Who was hacking on whom??? Just saying...

 

[Justin O'Neill]

Jim straight up has said RED designs it's own sensors in house.

We at RED have put a tremendous amount of our resources towards sensor development. We do it in house. We do not have outside companies doing the work for us.

 

[Brett Harrison]

It's worth noting this started out with

And no, the Alexa doesn't clip, the F65 doesn't clip. Technology can handle highlights. But at the moment that technology hasn't arrived at any Red cameras yet... Everyone is submissive and accepts this way of thinking of 'it is what it is'. And whatever Red does, it's fine by me... good luck with that...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...AL-DEAL-!!!!&p=1240802&viewfull=1#post1240802

And has ended up with a quotation from Wikipedia about the benefits of using floating point mathematics in digital signal processing. It's been an entertaining and educational ride from A to B.

 

[Phil Holland]

Okay. Before this thread goes off the rails.

First on Roger Deakins. Roger is basically implying that the general concept in terms of bayer pattern and CMOS technology is what are "basically the same". However, the sensors themselves are different in design as are the pixel size and array. Arri Alexa's pixels are 8.25 microns each, while Red Mysterium-X's are 5.4 microns each. Dragon is weighing in at a 5 micron pixel by the way.


Also, to answer the sort of weird informed origin of all this as Brett quoted above, both the Alexa and F65 clip. I have no idea why you would think they do not.


To be perfectly clear between DRX control (understanding what that does) and HDRx you have a lot of control over what happens "above the bar" in a given shot. Professionals here have posted nothing but solid examples and also have given their informed opinion. At this point I have no real idea what we're doing here and what exactly isn't clear.


Also, David Fincher chose to shoot the Justin Timberlake music video and the Calvin Klein commercial in monochrome. The key word there is chose. I'm 100% positive these were creative choices and not for really for any other crazy reason. He is one Director that doesn't really compromise on any front in terms of quality and shot execution.

 

[Luis Otero]

Phil,

Thanks for your posting. Solid facts and convincing argument.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

One more fresh example of Epic MX monochrome rolloff highlights in "Visitors" by Godfrey Reggio

[video]http://www.dejavurl.com/videos/67d22a18ad91bdb794b89d24c5478c530a552b22/Visitors-2013.mp4[/video]

 

[Julio Quintana]

One more fresh example of Epic MX monochrome rolloff highlights in "Visitors" by Godfrey Reggio

[video]http://www.dejavurl.com/videos/67d22a18ad91bdb794b89d24c5478c530a552b22/Visitors-2013.mp4[/video]

Nice video, but I don't see what that has to do with highlight rolloff or sensor clipping at all.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

After this comment:

I really don't want to be indelicate but this doesn't make any sense.

And the comment on the sensors in the Alexa and RED being the same, I just went back to my shut up thread and posted a few images...

And then I saw that the last image I posted was a bit related to Antonios comment... So I'll post it here, too.

So here goes. A totally senseless picture!

Over and underexposed beyond "recoverability" in any meaningfull way. Just a pic which is only what it is, because I have been so senseless as to expose some of it into clip, and the rest so low that you cannot get any (sensible) info out of it.

I must be out of my mind!

And before asking: NO WAY I give out that R3D!

 

[Gunleik Groven]

As to sensors being "the same", all sensors share more charracteristics than what divide them, and I can force a lot of the same problems on all the cameras I have tested. (I didn't bother to do the F65, because it is a more or less irrelevant camera here, even though I think it is a great cam)

And if you think you can stop a sensor from overloading, without actually not overloading it (that is through some kind of analogue pre AD limiting), that is an interesting idea, to put it mildly.

All sensors have a clip limit. Being an audio or imagesensor.

But... OTOH.

What do I know?

Back to shutting up.

Thanks David for cool examples and a great thread!

 

[Luis Otero]

Very appropriate image for this thread.

Thanks!

 

[Nick Morrison]

Nick I said where I heard it from when I posted, Roger Deakins, probably on his forum or on an interview on AC mag. But you can look it up yourself.

If this is a 'shock' to you and the cause of so much concern, I just feel like laughing uncontrolably and it's probably a sign that you need to get out more... Trying to appeal to your sensitive emotional side does nothing for me, sorry.

if you know about black & White photography and the effect of luma values in the perceived image, you know that clipping is a non issue. Maybe that is why David Fincher shot both this music video as well as the Rooney Mara spot both in hard light in black and whit and not in color.

I'm done. I'm back to posting about Contax lenses. It's a lot more fun.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Okay. Before this thread goes off the rails.

First on Roger Deakins. Roger is basically implying that the general concept in terms of bayer pattern and CMOS technology is what are "basically the same". However, the sensors themselves are different in design as are the pixel size and array. Arri Alexa's pixels are 8.25 microns each, while Red Mysterium-X's are 5.4 microns each. Dragon is weighing in at a 5 micron pixel by the way.


Also, to answer the sort of weird informed origin of all this as Brett quoted above, both the Alexa and F65 clip. I have no idea why you would think they do not.


To be perfectly clear between DRX control (understanding what that does) and HDRx you have a lot of control over what happens "above the bar" in a given shot. Professionals here have posted nothing but solid examples and also have given their informed opinion. At this point I have no real idea what we're doing here and what exactly isn't clear.


Also, David Fincher chose to shoot the Justin Timberlake music video and the Calvin Klein commercial in monochrome. The key word there is chose. I'm 100% positive these were creative choices and not for really for any other crazy reason. He is one Director that doesn't really compromise on any front in terms of quality and shot execution.

Phil, I nominate you DEAN OF REDUSER. Thanks for the clarity, and reserved tone.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I'm done. I'm going to posting about Contax lenses. It's a lot more fun.

LOL

Initially I actually thought there were a few questions in here, but now I am figuring that it was not really a question, but a statement.

I'd suggest that António took some of the time Phil, Nick, David (and gee: even I at times) have spent testing and picking cameras and their images into pieces and giving out both files and testingmethods, and try to recreate his own findings and then post them.

I will obviously agree to everything I see well documented and start eating my and the other guys hats.

until then

See you later!

 

[Luis Otero]

I really think that everything that needed to be said and discussed about this topic, backed up with real life experiences or informed opinions, has been already outlined.

I vote to close this thread...

Phil, do you have the authority to close it?