EPIC MX Highlight Rolloff thread....

[Brice Ansel]

Hello Antonio,

I feel your pain, in that, I too would prefer to not have to deal with harsh highlight clipping such as in your example.

When I shoot with any Digital Camera I basically always protect my highlights and therefore I always expose
so that they are not clipped and harsh as in your example. Wouldn't you have liked the look of your scene better
if you had stopped down a stop or two (or three)?

I think Antonio knows how to protect his highlights.
If I understand Antonio's point, he wanted to clip his chanels as opposed as protecting the highlights.
Cheers
B.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Juan and Brice,

Gorgeous! Mysterium MX, both?

 

[Brice Ansel]

Yes Epic MX
Ausies sun-Tuscan sun
Comon give me some Californian sun. ;-)

 

[ericyoung]

I think Antonio knows how to protect his highlights.
If I understand Antonio's point, he wanted to clip his chanels as opposed as protecting the highlights.
Cheers
B.

In that case, he's going to be out of luck for the forseeable future with current sensor technology!

Unfortunately there is no present prospect of a real time equivalent to an audio compressor/limiter for light, other than film's physical/chemical reaction to light.

 

[David Battistella]

Unfortunately there is no present prospect of a real time equivalent to an audio compressor/limiter for light, other than film's physical/chemical reaction to light.

Ah, but that's what we are here for, to bend, shapes and manipulate light to our will onto these digital sensors.

David

 

[Martin Stevens]

I think Antonio knows how to protect his highlights.
If I understand Antonio's point, he wanted to clip his chanels as opposed as protecting the highlights.
Cheers
B.

But, if he wants to clip his channels, then why would he not like it when they are clipped?

It seems to me that what he really wants is to be able to shoot at the exposure he wants
without the clipping, but if what he wants for exposure does not please him then he has
to use an exposure that he does not want, but ends with an image he does indeed like.

Twisted isn't it?

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I dropped out of the other thread for obvious reasons, I didn't want to be drawn into an argument with someone who has formed a strong opinion and then dares everyone to prove him wrong. You can't win those kind of arguments.

Also, I'm not an engineer so don't expect me to be the final word on how terms are defined. Some of you are more technically knowledgeable than I am.

But first of all, I think the halation issue is a bit misleading, it's a sideshow -- halation is just the glow around a point of overexposure, usually created by filtration though some older optics can create it. Halation is easy to get, just use some sort of mist filter and have a point of overexposure in the frame.

The main discussion and controversy is over the clipping point and the gamma curve of the highlights leading up to the clipping point, the knee and how compressed it is. Film negative has a wide DR -- maybe fifteen stops or so -- and it rolls off into undetailed white (D-max) gradually because at some point, you don't get as much silver formed compared to the amount of exposure the film gets so the curve gets flattened. To replicate that in digital, you need a camera with a wide DR and you need enough stops of highlight detail that you can apply a gamma curve to compress the knee. In theory, in order to create that flattening curve, you almost need one more stop of highlight detail than film has so that you have flexibility to bend that curve. Of course, you can get that extra highlight information by underexposing the image a bit more, at the risk of more noise.

I don't see why anyone is making such a big deal over the fact that the Alexa and F65 have about a stop more dynamic range, maybe 1.5-stops, than the Epic with the MX sensor -- that's been well-documented. It's a difference that can be moderated through lighting and exposure, and if you really want more overexposure latitude with the MX sensor, you just need to rate it faster. I can't see why a stop is enough for someone to say one camera's images are acceptable and the other camera's images are unacceptable, that seems oddly nitpicky. Either way, the Dragon sensor will bring the Epic to par and beyond the competition, so if someone doesn't like the way that the Dragon sensor handles exposure, then I guess they can just stop shooting because there isn't anything else on the market that can do better.

Sure, more DR is better, I also think the Alexa and F65 handle overexposure a bit more gracefully than the MX sensor does, but when I say "a bit" I mean "a bit", and it seems that the Dragon sensor will match or surpass the competition in DR so this whole discussion will soon be moot once Dragon is out there for everyone to use.

As for skin tones, that's more of an issue of color science and color-correction -- as others have noted, it can be easier to nail skin tones right out of the gate with the Alexa and F65, but you can match the Epic to either. Just the other day, I saw a trailer for a movie where I thought it had "Red camera skin tones" only to find out it had been shot on the Alexa! It was just a trailer so I don't want to assume that the final movie will have that look, but it shows how color-correction can screw skin tones up into something unnatural. And I've seen plenty of Epic-shot movies lately to have good skin tones, like "The Great Gatsby" and "The Amazing Spider-Man" did.

David, you have an amazing knack for rendering complex notions into something easily palpable for the mind. You have helped me "re-write" so much information inside my head these past years, from muddied "feelings" about things into usable, quantifiable information that's much easier to build on with new knowledge and experience.

 

[Scott Crawley]

But, if he wants to clip his channels, then why would he not like it when they are clipped?

It seems to me that what he really wants is to be able to shoot at the exposure he wants
without the clipping, but if what he wants for exposure does not please him then he has
to use an exposure that he does not want, but ends with an image he does indeed like.

Twisted isn't it?

I don't want to make this thread all about Antonio, or appear as if I am stalking him to heap critisism on him. With that said, Martin's quote seems to suggest that we have misconstrued his intent. If you go back to the Real Deal thread you will see some of the context he presented it in. See post #734, page 74 I think. It SEEMS he anticipates shooting in harsh mid day light without flying nets or otherwise limiting the range of light falling upon the scene. Somewhere in the discussion he refers to his DP being able to keep up with him, suggesting to me that they don't want to spend the time to control the light, or prefer to shoot in harsh light but wish to have smooth roll off.

I can't link it, but here is a quote:
"Also at the moment, I'm prepping a shoot and neither my DP nor the client want to shot on Red. I do have the power to have the last say, but... it is a very contrasty set I'll be shooting, and to be honest I'm on the fence here, because on one side I know I can do it, I know Red can give me a better film than if I shoot it on the Alexa, but I will have to take on full responsability for my choice of camera... and if I end up with those windows clipped, I'll be fucked... And I don't need to put my career on the line for no camera... Too many clipped out films have ended in this agency's hands, and they might not know what it is, but they like the Alexa better, I know why; highlights. I also seen too many bad shot films on Red on TV, I would be weary too if I didn't know any better.

My Dp, just doesn't want to worry about the highlights, he wants to light up the place and do his thing and not having to be constantly checking out the false color monitor and tweaking the lights every time there's a Red shape alert in the false color monitor. So he just rather shoot on the Alexa too and just use his light meter and keep up with me and my pace.

I was trying to get some answers here today, but I got no real world examples to change my obsessive mind... so I guess that I'm going to cop out and use the Alexa this time."

 

[Mark K.]

Ok David, here's a shot we did on Red One MX. This is a very difficult shot for any camera. See the harsh rolloff as the sky fades into blue from the sun. All I want to know is how can I do this kind of shot without the clipping and the artifacts. I understand that I can use HDRx on the Epic. But are there any other options?

A Grad-ND.

 

[Brice Ansel]

But, if he wants to clip his channels, then why would he not like it when they are clipped?

It seems to me that what he really wants is to be able to shoot at the exposure he wants
without the clipping, but if what he wants for exposure does not please him then he has
to use an exposure that he does not want, but ends with an image he does indeed like.

Twisted isn't it?

You made my head spinning.
Too complicated for my English level.

Another frame, more beefy.
I forced a bit on the contrast thought.
Me think the three chanels are cliping big time here.
Not sure it's a nice roll off but the beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I'm happy with the result.

B.

 

[David Battistella]

Guys.

this is a new thread, with, hopefully a more positive outlook.

There is no need to play detective on posts from old threads.

We are trying to get into a creative choices discussion over, "he said, she said"

What's done is done, what's said is said. Can we try to go forward with a constructive approach to problem solving and best practices, (whether the problem is perceived or not is less of a problem)

ND GRAD is a contribution.

You said this, you said that, is not constructive.

David

 

[Scott Crawley]

Once again, I am not trying to do that. I am trying to understand by putting it into context. That is all.

Guys.

this is a new thread, with, hopefully a more positive outlook.

There is no need to play detective on posts from old threads.

We are trying to get into a creative choices discussion over, "he said, she said"

What's done is done, what's said is said. Can we try to go forward with a constructive approach to problem solving and best practices, (whether the problem is perceived or not is less of a problem)

ND GRAD is a contribution.

You said this, you said that, is not constructive.

David

 

[Martin Stevens]

From what I know.... (don't shoot me!)

Simply put, the Alexa, when rated and exposed at ISO 800, has 7 stops of overexposure latitude from middle gray,

and,

simply put, the Epic MX, when rated and exposed at ISO 800, has 4.5 stops of overexposure latitude from middle gray.

This is the big deal correct? I have mentioned this in the past, and pissed people off, so I am
reticent to even write it again.

What I really want to know is....

How many stops of overexposure latitude from middle gray will the Dragon Sensor have when rated at ISO 800?
I have a feeling that it is 5.5, but only time and tests will tell.....unless those that already know chime in and say.

 

[David Battistella]

Once again, I am not trying to do that. I am trying to understand by putting it into context. That is all.

I totally, understand and see that. No worries.

Things get derailled quickly here these days! That is a good thing, it means the Dragon passion is starting to flow.

David

 

[David Battistella]

I think this answer happens when it is really out in the wild and everyone has their hands on it, from what Mark has shown us (in real world shots) I think its going to be quite comparable, if not better. No penalties for changing ISO with dragon either. So latitude through the range.

David

From what I know.... (don't shoot me!)

Simply put, the Alexa, when rated and exposed at ISO 800, has 7 stops of overexposure latitude from middle gray,

and,

simply put, the Epic MX, when rated and exposed at ISO 800, has 4.5 stops of overexposure latitude from middle gray.

This is the big deal correct? I have mentioned this in the past, and pissed people off, so I am
reticent to even write it again.

What I really want to know is....

How many stops of overexposure latitude from middle gray will the Dragon Sensor have when rated at ISO 800?
I have a feeling that it is 5.5, but only time and tests will tell.....unless those that already know chime in and say.

 

[Brice Ansel]

From what I know.... (don't shoot me!)

Simply put, the Alexa, when rated and exposed at ISO 800, has 7 stops of overexposure latitude from middle gray,

and,

simply put, the Epic MX, when rated and exposed at ISO 800, has 4.5 stops of overexposure latitude from middle gray.

This is the big deal correct? I have mentioned this in the past, and pissed people off, so I am
reticent to even write it again.

What I really want to know is....

How many stops of overexposure latitude from middle gray will the Dragon Sensor have when rated at ISO 800?
I have a feeling that it is 5.5, but only time and tests will tell.....unless those that already know chime in and say.

With all due respect Martin I don't think it's the good thread to get an answer to your question.
Have a good day.
Edit: it is not about the Alexa, it not about the dragon, it is about Epic MX user trying to acheive a pleasing roll off.
B.

 

[Martin Stevens]

With all due respect Martin I don't think it's the good thread to get an answer to your question.
Have a good day.
Edit: it is not about the Alexa, it not about the dragon, it is about Epic MX user trying to acheive a pleasing roll off.
B.

Yes, but my point is that you can only get a pleasing roll off if you have enough
overexposure latitude from middle gray, or you shoot in a manner that doesn't
allow clipping in the first place.

 

[David Battistella]

Yes, but my point is that you can only get a pleasing roll off if you have enough
overexposure latitude from middle gray, or you shoot in a manner that doesn't
allow clipping in the first place.

That is true and a very good point.

It's no news that we have to be careful with the highlights with digital sensors, people have seemed to manage some great images with the Red M, MX and EPIC MX sensor.

we are all excited to see how every user builds on what Mark has already shown us all in his thread!

Exciting times.

David

 

[Brice Ansel]

Yes, but my point is that you can only get a pleasing roll off if you have enough
overexposure latitude from middle gray, or you shoot in a manner that doesn't
allow clipping in the first place.

Martin this is the whole point of this thread.
You are a hard core Red User, comon my friend, lets try to be constructive and lets just enjoy what we have.
To quote Davis Lynch "Enjoy the doing".
Cheers
B.

 

[Luis Otero]

Ok David, here's a shot we did on Red One MX. This is a very difficult shot for any camera. See the harsh rolloff as the sky fades into blue from the sun. All I want to know is how can I do this kind of shot without the clipping and the artifacts. I understand that I can use HDRx on the Epic. But are there any other options?

And please, if you don't see anything wrong with this frame grab, don't confront me by telling me I can't expose or grade or I'm not competent enough to shoot on Red whatever else you think of. I'm really trying my best here, if I start to get shit from people I will just leave the thread.

Antonio,

Can you post the R3D of this image? During the footage acquisition (shooting), a Graduated ND normally would have been used for this situation (film or digital). However, there are things that can be attained during the grading process. I would like to play with it to see how much can be done to deliver what you want.

Let me know,