Epic makes your Red One more valuable

[Steven-Marc C.]

The way I see it is that Epic garantees that there will be an upgrade path (and a very generous one) for those wanting to stay on top of the game. Of course, going from 17500 to 40000 is a very steep step and not all of us will be able to afford it. But by providing this trading-in option, Jim makes sure that the Red One will not be worth less than 17500 even a year away from now, and even if it's been used and abused (as long as it's "still working"). Because it would still be worth 17500 to anyone wanting to buy a brand new Red Epic! Of course there won't be as many buyers for Epic as for Red One and Red may implement some kind of policy that the trade-in will only apply to the original buyer, but the potential is there. Not to mention we now have confirmation that the Red One itself is also upgradable. This strikes me like a very clever move to make sure everyone gets a nice piece of the cake. Well done Jim and co.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I've been thinking - for more than a year actually - that one year into delivering all cams,you would be able to pick up ONEs second hand in the 50% price-tag range, basically because I suspect there will be too many out there for a good rental price and that quite a few seems to have bought it without sufficient pre-investigation.

This is an incredible clever move to defy that gravity.

 

[Bang WOW Bang]

Why not we can sell our RED ones to Soon Only Not Yet in higher prices for them in tracing us in the K factors Racing Games !!!

Rabbit and RED JJ.

Stewart
WOW

 

[Nick Wolf]

It harnesses a world wide movements energy and keeps everything forward moving on all fronts...Its a blessing.

Our capacity to weather through no matter what each individuals burden happens to be will be lessened by having this to look and move forward towards it keeps us on path.

It also facilitates the next game changing shift when DI houses start to fold one after the other as we get access to all the tools and skill sets cheaply!!! for our arsenal, then we still have the option of with one more simple step really getting into the game and dont have to deal or be milked anymore by all the middle men.

It will level the field even more and now is really the time to hone those dream projects and get everything in place.

It will be a sad moment trading in a Red that has been good to you for an Epic. I want both side by side.

Its all good. very very good.

DogDay

 

[Obin Olson]

some middlemen btw have vast skill sets you can only dream of, or learn yourself over the course of 5-10 years.

Sometimes it's best to "hire the expert" when you want it done right.

just a thought....anyway you can "cut out the middle men" right now, buy FCP for what $1500?

I can't understand why your so worried about the "middle men"

 

[Visceral_IvaN]

I've been thinking - for more than a year actually - that one year into delivering all cams,you would be able to pick up ONEs second hand in the 50% price-tag range, basically because I suspect there will be too many out there for a good rental price and that quite a few seems to have bought it without sufficient pre-investigation.

This is an incredible clever move to defy that gravity.

You know I never thought of it that way, but it is rather brilliant, isnt it?!

 

[Tico Llaurador]

The addition of Epic and Scarlet to the RED camera roster puts the One smack dab on the sweet spot, where it belongs. And with an open upgrade path, even sweeter. Not to mention the "upsell" path to Epic. Clever. Very clever.

IMHO, the RED One is still the most compelling product of the line-up, all things considered.

Obviously, there is a method to Jim's madness.

 

[Nick Wolf]

Hi Obin,

I totally agree with you and value experts with skillsets beyond what my capabilities most likely will ever be...Those people offering those services however have also to fulfill certain criteria for my business to go to them.

IOW somehow a two way street of interaction and leeway for negotiation has to be present in that relationship for me to feel comfortable with it.

Middle men on the other hand is obviously a derogatory word and you are right it shouldnt be used to generalize an entire group of professionals so let me clearitfy who I mean by middle man and maybe in that process arrive at a more accurate word for them.

People who know your back is against the wall...You know when you need something solved and there is no one you can turn to for whatever reason, people who have no quams about exploiting that moment when you are at their mercy and milking you dry and very often after the dust has settled the service they provided was at best mediocere.

I think the desk top path to finishing is always dependant upon the level of talent and skill in the seat, the same is true of a mid to high end post house, haveing the option however to either master skill sets yourself ( if thats your bent ) or hire a freelancer and pay per hour to do their thing for you or to either leave a project and let the last major push be done by a choosen expert who deserves your business or push it as far as you can and then bring it in for the last finishing touches...Force those people to work harder both on the costumer service end of it and in terms of what they actually can do for you that no one else can thus motivating exorbitant costs. Sometimes well worth it often IMHO not.

Lenses, Cameras & Kits, Work stations & Soft ware, Skill sets, the price tag for these solutions, services, and items, depends to a large extent on scarcity and or access. Very few people can handle having the upper hand and when it becomes a sellers market alot of creeps come out of the woodwork to prey on artists in a tight spot.

Thats what I meant. I personally would never dream of not turning to an expert for both consultation and actual application of their skills in finishing and of course pay for what its worth their time, effort and expertise.

But I do want to also be able to steer business away from those preditors desguised as "Friends of the Independant" who are really in it for the fleecing.

Cheers,

DogDay.

 

[Derek Wiesehahn]

What Red has done here is very similar to what Phase One have been doing with their medium format digital backs in the still photography world. This trade in policy gives potential customers the peace of mind to invest in current technology now, rather than waiting for the next generation of the devices to be released. It is absolutely essential when you are talking about technologies which move so fast and cost so much.

Bravo to Jim and Red for adopting this business model.

Having said that, I think that most of us would have rather seen a 4K projector introduced at NAB, or a 4K monitor, or a working set of primes, or a follow focus, or any one of the other things that Red One owners need right now.

 

[Frank Mirbach]

I think I like the idea behind EPIC and the trade in possibilities ! But I seem to have missed the upgrade option for the ONE you guys mentioned here ?

 

[J. Eric Camp]

Red one is constantly getting software updates and they have said that you will have the option of swapping out the current RED ONE sensor for the (or a similar) sensor that is going into EPIC.

 

[mezmo]

The way I see it is that Epic garantees that there will be an upgrade path (and a very generous one) for those wanting to stay on top of the game. Of course, going from 17500 to 40000 is a very steep step and not all of us will be able to afford it. But by providing this trading-in option, Jim makes sure that the Red One will not be worth less than 17500 even a year away from now, and even if it's been used and abused (as long as it's "still working"). Because it would still be worth 17500 to anyone wanting to buy a brand new Red Epic! Of course there won't be as many buyers for Epic as for Red One and Red may implement some kind of policy that the trade-in will only apply to the original buyer, but the potential is there. Not to mention we now have confirmation that the Red One itself is also upgradable. This strikes me like a very clever move to make sure everyone gets a nice piece of the cake. Well done Jim and co.

Hi Stephen,
I agree the upgrade path is a great idea but Epic or RED TWO, will make
RED ONE a less desirable camera for Rental. Personal use fine. If you have a RED ONE, work it's butt off NOW. Rent it to death befor Jim and the boys
get Epic out the factory door. Cover your investment cause by that time
some dude will bring out 'Blockbuster' the 10K camera that makes coffee, prints Invoices and sharpens pencils while filming in 4D at 1000fps.
Cheers Mezmo

 

[J. Eric Camp]

It's true. I am super excited about EPIC, build 16 and the RED RAY. Scarlet... for me and my work will have little impact. Moving on.

That all being said. I too would have liked to have seen more tools focused on the current workflow. To see the 4k .r3d path "finished" start to end. RED RAY is a huge step in that direction. A 4k optical drive are you kidding me. However I do not expect RED to come up with monitoring solutions. It seems like that would be to diverse a R&D path. In my eyes RED is currently focused on 4k image capture and manipulation. I want to see their full efforts put behind that endeavor. To ask them to fight the fight on both fronts, capture and delivery might be stretching them a bit thin in this the early hours of their reign. 4k monitors are being shown, 4k projectors too. F*** the sony projector though.

Our tools will come in time. We must simply be patient. It's amazing how far we have come as an industry in how short a time. Many of the younger members of this forum and community may not appreciate the growth rate. I remember many a debate about "analog vs digital" and it wasn't all that long ago.

I am still flabbergasted and RED's economic model. God bless 'em for not being driven by greed.

So this is me, grateful to be a part of all this. I am not some sap that will gobble up anything that is given to me. But I am quite content with the tools in front of me. Are they "perfect" yet? Silly question. Are they capable, quality tools that have opened doors many of us never though possible?

Considering the historical costs of this industry, many don't realize that the tools RED is providing us makes us all "Just lucky to be here."

And there is one last thing I would like to say. Tools are tools. Get the best tool you can. But it is still just a tool. Tools make life/work easier and sometimes up the quality. However, most are not necessary.

I could build a canoe with rock and a tree, given I was truly dedicated to it. If it's your life's passion to build a canoe, don't let anything stop you. Figure it out.

-e-

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Hi Stephen,
I agree the upgrade path is a great idea but Epic or RED TWO, will make
RED ONE a less desirable camera for Rental. Personal use fine. If you have a RED ONE, work it's butt off NOW. Rent it to death befor Jim and the boys
get Epic out the factory door. Cover your investment cause by that time
some dude will bring out 'Blockbuster' the 10K camera that makes coffee, prints Invoices and sharpens pencils while filming in 4D at 1000fps.
Cheers Mezmo

dont forget the integrated air conditioner for the dop

 

[Michael Brennan]

For what its worth....

For what its worth....

What the upgrade path also does is somewhat disguise the price increase.
Apart from major advances and introduction of new formats, the Japanese do not increase price when delivering new features in an existing product line.


Bearing in mind CMOS chips are very cheap to make once capital costs are covered this is indeed a very high price increase when compared to other manufacturers and is out of kilter with the level of increase in performance from what I know.

Perhaps Jim has been listening to those RED one owners who have been wanting to charge RED out at a "what it is worth" rate (ie should be same as a 35mm film package) rather than electronic industry standard 1% per day.


Sure 5k for $40k is worth it!! but one wonders what it will do to RED one rental rates.



Mike Brennan

 

[M_Sanderson]

i go away for a week and come back to all these bloody new cameras. Now im just scared - and very excited whehe.

I guess there is no excuse for bad images any more once these cameras become the workhorses

 

[Derek Wiesehahn]

I do not expect RED to come up with monitoring solutions. It seems like that would be to diverse a R&D path. In my eyes RED is currently focused on 4k image capture and manipulation. I want to see their full efforts put behind that endeavor. To ask them to fight the fight on both fronts, capture and delivery might be stretching them a bit thin in this the early hours of their reign.
-e-

As I remember, there was a rumor going around that Jim and Co were working on a high resolution projector. I believe that rumor came from Red itself. As far as monitors are concerned, they are already producing 2, the 5.6" and the 7", so I don't think that it is too much of a stretch to believe that they might be interested in that market. The Red Ray development seems to indicate that they are planning to create an entire system, as their name Red Digital Cinema, would also suggest.

 

[J. Eric Camp]

true

true

As I remember, there was a rumor going around that Jim and Co were working on a high resolution projector. I believe that rumor came from Red itself. As far as monitors are concerned, they are already producing 2, the 5.6" and the 7", so I don't think that it is too much of a stretch to believe that they might be interested in that market. The Red Ray development seems to indicate that they are planning to create an entire system, as their name Red Digital Cinema, would also suggest.

Sure you are right, the rumor was out there and in fact they may be doing it. I don't believe it's wrong for them to do it, I just was not greatly disappointed that they haven't produced them yet as some seem to be.

 

[Billy McCannon]

Thank you Kinoeye, you have articulated my feeling perfectly - it is a great business model and the new products are very exciting but I can't quite rejoice because the things I was looking forward to; monitor, projector, primes and follow focus and better workflow - did show.

 

[Michael Brennan]

EPIC sensor available for RED one?

EPIC sensor available for RED one?

Red one is constantly getting software updates and they have said that you will have the option of swapping out the current RED ONE sensor for the (or a similar) sensor that is going into EPIC.

Could anyone from RED confirm the above..that the EPIC sensor will be available in RED one???

I'll update my recent negative posts if this is true!


Mike Brennan