Epic + helicopter shooting shutter speeds & frame rates??

[Mark Toia]

The Cineron is specifically designed for the Epic/Scarlet and is perfect for handheld bungie mount out the side of a full size and is small enough to be used on a RC helicopter. It is amazing footage that does not require any post stabilization. Here is a pic of a early version last time we shot with it.

Here is some footage shot with a early prototype https://vimeo.com/35672071

Send me some links, prices etc.
Im very interested in using your services.

Can you fly with a EPIC or SCALET at least.

 

[CJ Roy]

As far as glass in front on your gimbal you want that, for a bunch of reasons, yes in the old days some people used some crap glass, but the newer Cineflex V14 and Dan's Gryon have excellent glass that when clean does not cause problems. Dan does allow the glass to come out on his Gyron and it does have the side benefit of keeping the camera even cooler but it's usually not a good idea if it's on a helicopter.

Sorry, you really do not want any type of glass beyond your lens or filtration. Most aerial DP's shoot at a somewhat deep stop to maintain focus and not only does the glass usually attract dirt and dust when flying and especially landings and take offs, but you also get reflections of your lens, bounced back from that front glass. And if there is anything on that front glass (dirt, rain, bugs, flares) with the way the stabilization looks, it won't just be a static artifact on your image, it's moving around constantly and extremely difficult to fix, if not impossible. This is why the higher-end systems don't put any glass on their domes.

The 25-250HR is the standard lens than comes with the Gyron as of now. They can put in other lenses upon order, but at the time of "Frozen Ground" this was the only option, which wasn't ideal for the Epic. Everything had to be shot at 4KHD. And where it only takes the other larger systems and hour or less to swap a lens, it takes far longer currently on the Gyron.

 

[Aaron McLane]

For what reasons, exactly, is it better than CineFlex?

For 1080p the Cineflex is great and the Sony and long Fuji zoom combo is by far the best for ENG type shooting but for Cinematic type shooting with the Epic we think the Gryon is the best because right now it is the only system for a full size helicopter that we can see sub pixel accuracy at 5k resolution at longer focal lengths (all of them are pretty good at wide angle). We have not seen any full rez footage from the Shotover yet but hear good things from middle earth about it. Remember 1/2 of one pixel stabilization at 100mm on a 1080p system is great but the same level of stabilization with a 5k camera could be 2 or 3 pixels out of wack and result in softness.

Optical stabilization is often measured in micro-radians and although most manufactures don't state what theirs are capable of it can be seen during critical viewing and once you've looked at enough stabilized footage you start to get a feel for it. Really good stabilization feels "heavy" for lack of a better term.

If you ever want to come by our screening room in Hollywood and see demo footage of various stabilized heads let me know.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

If Epic is what you want to use, it won't mount to a Cineflex unit (That engineering decision puzzles me). Dan Wolfe's Gyron system is currently the only non-RC Epic option. They haven't published max airspeed limits, AFAIK, but certainly substantially higher than the RC rigs.

As far as glass is concerned, the Cessna 337 mount requires it, due aerodynamic loading/motor torque on the head at higher airspeeds. Their heli solution is always available, but at restricted radii of operation, and higher cost.

 

[Aaron McLane]

Sorry, you really do not want any type of glass beyond your lens or filtration. Most aerial DP's shoot at a somewhat deep stop to maintain focus and not only does the glass usually attract dirt and dust when flying and especially landings and take offs, but you also get reflections of your lens, bounced back from that front glass. And if there is anything on that front glass (dirt, rain, bugs, flares) with the way the stabilization looks, it won't just be a static artifact on your image, it's moving around constantly and extremely difficult to fix, if not impossible. This is why the higher-end systems don't put any glass on their domes.

The 25-250HR is the standard lens than comes with the Gyron as of now. They can put in other lenses upon order, but at the time of "Frozen Ground" this was the only option, which wasn't ideal for the Epic. Everything had to be shot at 4KHD. And where it only takes the other larger systems and hour or less to swap a lens, it takes far longer currently on the Gyron.

CJ you are right of course that the less glass you have the better and we've been burned enough times by a little speck jumping around like crazy that no one saw on the front glass of our Cineflex to take as many steps as we can to avoid it but still believe the pros outweigh the cons of the front glass. Some of the things we do to mitigate the risk of a evil speck is to use a 17" on board monitor (and we are getting a 25" OLED soon) to really see what's what. After preflight we keep the glass covered for startup and run up and fly the ball pointing backwards until we are on station.

The Cineron X in it's most lightweight mode does not have any glass or ball around it but we still put a clear filter on and the filter is often only good for one or two missions before we need to replace it.

Yea the Gryon has been using the 25-250HR with really good results but it looks like Dan is getting into the Fuji 18-85 T2 which should be awesome for night stuff and which may well be the best zoom out there and is the most expensive for that range.

 

[CJ Roy]

for Cinematic type shooting with the Epic we think the Gryon is the best because right now it is the only system for a full size helicopter that we can see sub pixel accuracy at 5k resolution at longer focal lengths

I don't mean to keep picking apart what you're saying here, but this is extremely misleading. The Gyron that was used for "Frozen Ground" was a gutted Gyron 935 system designed for a Sony & ENG lens. The original idea was to use the Red One, then the Epic came out as I was apart of that initial discussion when Dan decided to do it.

Both SpaceCam and Pictorvision have been using Red's since 2008 with incredible results, and in 3D. The Eclipse is the most state-of-the-art gyro stabilized system ever created and won an Academy Award for technical Achievement this past year. Nothing comes close to its stabilization.
The Gyron is just now getting out of the gates, and there's a lot to go with it, but the other two have probably 30+ features under their resumes with Red/Epic cameras.

I'm not sure what exactly what you're saying about sub pixel accuracy at 5k Resolution, but if you're saying the Gyron is the best you're overlooking any sort of horizon stabilization.

 

[CJ Roy]

Dan Wolfe's Gyron system is currently the only non-RC Epic option. They haven't published max airspeed limits, AFAIK, but certainly substantially higher than the RC rigs. .

That's not true. SpaceCam, Pictorvision Eclipse, Wescam, Stab-C and Super G have all used Epics before the Gyron had.

 

[CJ Roy]

CJ you are right of course that the less glass you have the better and we've been burned enough times by a little speck jumping around like crazy that no one saw on the front glass of our Cineflex to take as many steps as we can to avoid it but still believe the pros outweigh the cons of the front glass. Some of the things we do to mitigate the risk of a evil speck is to use a 17" on board monitor (and we are getting a 25" OLED soon) to really see what's what. After preflight we keep the glass covered for startup and run up and fly the ball pointing backwards until we are on station.

What are the pros of having front glass? The motors inside the cineflex aren't strong enough to handle no front glass. Almost every other system can, including the Gyron. And even the engineering team was surprised by that when they did the first no-glass test.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Point taken, at what airspeeds are these heads capable of withstanding?

Easy enough to stabilize a zero-torque unit, but introduce real world dynamics, a horse of a different color.

If you had to shoot a perfectly stabilized sequence, what head would you choose?

 

[CJ Roy]

Point taken, at what airspeeds are these heads capable of withstanding?

Easy enough to stabilize a zero-torque unit, but introduce real world dynamics, a horse of a different color.

If you had to shoot a perfectly stabilized sequence, what head would you choose?

The Eclipse can do 110-120kts, SpaceCam's D Unit (used for Pirates 4 & The Hobbit) can do 100kts. I believe the Gyron can do 100+.

There's a lot to consider in picking an aerial platform ranging from what type of helicopter you're using (usually a B2 A-Star for the larger systems) to your shooting needs. SpaceCam and Eclipse can accommodate almost any lens and camera combination which normally will have to match or be approved by 1st unit's DP. Some can roll at a further degree than others, some have GPS stabilization that ensure the horizon is perfect on every shot, some have fiber optic slip rings that can have several streams of HD pass through the system without any cables hanging out. Some can be used with rain deflectors which would otherwise let weather sabotage a shoot. SpaceCam & Eclipse can record all the lens data and camera angles for VFX, which is a big deal. Each one of the systems has its strengths and weaknesses, just like with anything.

SpaceCam, Pictorvision & Nettmann Systems travel with technicians who can fix a malfunction on-site. For systems to promote that they're tech-less is essentially like not having a DIT or an AC on a digital camera shoot. It's just silly as something will inevitably go awry or has to be changed.

Best bet is to hire the best Aerial DP or Aerial coordinator that you can and to get their recommendations. A quick IMDB search should point you in the right direction.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Exactly CJ, the aerial thing is fraught with technology issues best left to those who have their heads wrapped around the physics of the matter.

I guess we can all agree here, you can't get the shot without an experienced pilot who knows his stuff, the cam operator who has experienced fingers wrapped around the controls, and the stab head that has been designed by the best scientists in the industry.

Pretty pictures come at great cost. No shortcuts, sorry to say.

 

[CJ Roy]

Pretty pictures come at great cost. No shortcuts, sorry to say.

Well said. For the pilots, who are usually also the Aerial Coordinators, there's a major difference between regular pilots and Motion Picture Pilots (MPPA). Not everyone is listed on their site, for some odd reason... but it's a good start, pilot-wise. http://www.moviepilots.com/