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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic flare issue solution

all cameras are different. this is nothing new, it just happened to be noticed moreso on the epic recently. it's not a very strange occurrence on any type of camera, but a good to be aware of nonetheless.
 
This issue being talked about here is specific to the EPIC. Make sure you look at the image on the two monitors in the first posting.
 
Doug, you're amazing and are always thinking of great options. I'm still happily using your RED Nikon mount on my R1. Clean, simple, it works. There's no need to fear, Underdahl is here!
 
Alexander Alexandrov said:
so this flare? is it present on many cameras in the same way or is it epic-specific?
Click to expand...

The EPIC has very similar gate flare, perhaps just a bit longer / skinnier flare, when compared to an ARRI 235 and 435. It flares under much of the same conditions and seems to be a slightly easier camera to "flare" -- I'm thinking that the narrow "throat" of the sensor well increases the chances of flare.. At least that's what I can produce here. I can easily produce the flare at will when doing specific testing. However, in my nearly 4 months of shooting with the EPIC-M, I have now only run across the flare twice in real-world shooting. Both times in the last 10 days. Both times able to control with additional flagging. Of course, others have pointed out, and rightly so, that additional flagging is not always possible -- steadicam rigs and so forth. Your optical path does have an influence on the flare, different lenses can cause the flare more readily than others. In my testing it seems easier to reproduce with medium focal length lenses, where they're a long enough focal length to more than cover the height of the sensor (shine light over the shiny surface around the OLPF), but not long enough to keep the light as perpendicular to the sensor plane. In other words, the focal lengths people will shoot with most are going to be the most likely to produce the flare. Longer zooms with more elements and internal light control seem to mitigate the flare more so than primes with a large aperture. The difference are subtle, but visible without specific measurement.

All cameras tend to exhibit some sort of flare under the "right conditions", especially digital systems with sensors that have reflective surfaces. But the way they may exhibit various types of flare or internal reflection is entirely unique to each camera design. The Sony F35 has similar vertical flares as well, they were actually employed in Tron Legacy as an in-camera effect. ;) The ALEXA has an additional high-contrast filter over the OLPF and CMOS sensor block. It doesn't exhibit the same sort of streaky "gate flare", but tends to get a broader glare effect that can wash out the image.

Most all CMOS cameras tend to exhibit "OLPF flare", which is an internal reflection where light reflects off the sensor or OLPF and bounces back to the sensor via the rear element of your lens. It usually shows up as a red-tinted flare that is round or crescent-shaped, sometimes rectangular, depending on any masking on the front of the lens. It can often show visible circles, dots or diamond shapes which are an enlarged reflection of the micro-lenses, micro-facets or other structures on the surface of the sensor or OLPF.

The best thing to keep in mind is that no camera is perfect in every way. No optical system is perfect and there is no way to create a flawless optical path from the front of your lens or filters all the way through a lens to the surface of an imager (sensor/ film). This is why we run tests and familiarize ourselves with the equipment to be used. I am anxious to see what Douglas has cooked up here. I don't feel the EPIC flaring issue is as big of an issue as some make it out to be. On the other hand, it could always rear its head at an inopportune time where trying to experiment with various light control solutions to fix it just may not be in the cards. I'd hate to have it pop up in a live event situation only to have a client get upset over it -- Murphy's Law and all that. So if Doug has a simple fix that is "RED APPROVED", then I'm buying. Anyone who jumps ship from EPIC to another camera in fear of this flare probably needs their head examined, because it's not like most other cinema cameras are without similar or even their own unique issues. So do tests, take appropriate measures to avoid problems and be prepared. Paranoia over a potential issue is a bad thing.

I keep meaning to do a few internal, behind the lens, tests of my own, but haven't made the time. I'm thinking the shiny black metal piece around the OLPF might be conductive and instead of an adhesive solution a magnetic one would allow for quick and repetitive in and out use as Douglas describes. Perhaps that is his solution?
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
...The ALEXA has an additional high-contrast filter over the OLPF and CMOS sensor block. It doesn't exhibit the same sort of streaky "gate flare", but tends to get a broader glare effect that can wash out the image.
...
Click to expand...

Doesn't the Alexa have a LOW contrast filter Jeff? :smile:
 
Shawn Nelson said:
You should sell your IP to Red and they should ship one with every camera.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly! This is definitely a (tiny but sometimes very annoying) flaw in the design of the EPIC. And imo it needs to be taken care of by RED, and not by third parties.
(this is not against you, Doug, of course! It seems you did a wonderful work!)
 
Adrian T. said:
My thoughts exactly! This is definitely a (tiny but sometimes very annoying) flaw in the design of the EPIC. And imo it needs to be taken care of by RED, and not by third parties.
(this is not against you, Doug, of course! It seems you did a wonderful work!)
Click to expand...

AGREE wholeheartedly. Great job Doug. But this just proves that there is a problem with a very direct, apparently straight-forward solution. Why should we all have to deal with this as a third party fix? If it's fixable, why doesn't RED just own up to the problem and fix it for everyone? I really don't want to have to mess with it.

Hello RED - Are you there? Can you please respond to all of these posts, and your end-user community going out of their way to fix this and just take care of it?

Thank you,

M
 
Heard on set. Speak this out loud.

DP "Can we flag that flare?"
Key grip: "that ain't lens flare, that's gate flare"
DP: "aw flock, I should have known. Can we get the Underdahl flare flocker on that?"
First: "on it"
DP: "that flare flock is flocking awesome "

Client smiles.


David
 
People will FLOCK to this......and presumably buy it.
 
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