EPIC Dynamic Range...

[Roberto Lequeux]

Those are very different numbers from Emmanuel's 190MB/s... well, I better cool it and just wait for the RED team to share.

It would be great if RED Rocket could do the step! But isn't it already maxed out and purpose build for debayer and other metadata functions? Unless they already had lossless mostly cooked up before Rocket's release.

Ok, enough spamming for me... To the quiet cave!

 

[Deanan]

He said "onboard SSD module", which I take to mean another module that accepts a form of SSD media. Hey, you know, like those RED MAG 128GB thingies we've all seen in the renders. So I'm ASSuming, you record to those, pop them off/out of the camera and plug it into the correct module on your RED STATION and away you go.

Correct, REDMAG 1.8" and it goes into the RED Station 1.8" slot.
Not internal to the camera...

 

[Deanan]

Filmout with VFX = RC250 (read: most want as uncompressed as possible)

If you automatically think you need max redcode for everything you'll bury yourself in data unnecessarily. You'd be surprised how much data can be wasted on visually inconsequential data by trying to make something mathematically lossless.

 

[Nick Shaw]

Those are very different numbers from Emmanuel's 190MB/s... well, I better cool it and just wait for the RED team to share.

Sorry, went back and corrected my maths again. Not with it this morning! I'll show my workings this time, so people can see if they agree.

5120x2560 = 13107200 pixels per frame
*12 (bits/pixel) /8 (bits/byte) = 19660800 bytes per frame
*24 (fps) = 471859200 bytes per second
/(1024*1024) = 450 Mbytes per second

Which is 180MB/s when compressed 2.5:1

Apologies to Emmanuel. My numbers are quite close to his.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

 

[David Battistella]

That all said, I hear ya on the "some people". I'll buy my next car with his obsession with uncompressed

I'm already reading about DP's not wanting to stake their career on an M sensor now and in TO, every "new" production starting up "needs" to shoot M-X. 6000M sensors out there but everybody seems to need M-X now because, you know, BECAUSE!!!

That said, I do not want to take this thread off topic.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Am I wrong in estimating 128GB SSD will store about 11 minutes of 5K footage? So, a 128GB SSD is our new 1000' of film. Except, of course, it can be reused.

 

[JD Holloway]

More like kicked it to Satan.

...Satan is in the noise floor...

 

[JD Holloway]

I'm already reading about DP's not wanting to stake their career on an M sensor now and in TO, every "new" production starting up "needs" to shoot M-X. 6000M sensors out there but everybody seems to need M-X now because, you know, BECAUSE!!!

That said, I do not want to take this thread off topic.

No kidding DB, production ramping up as we speak and I'm feeling this.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

i'm guessing its part of the reason why the epic's cost is spectulativly so much more than a scarlet, but ofcourse that would just be another speculation;-)

Yeah, I guess it requires serious processing power. But who knows? For example, I haven't noticed a much higher load on the CPU while encoding lossless audio. But RAW motion pictures are probably a lot different to compress. Anyway, if we could have 24-25fps@3K true lossless on the 2/3" cams that would be sweet.

It can't get better than that. Literally. :drool5:

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

RC 250 is going to be awesome, but am wondering about what flavors are in between that and the current RC42? And is 42 the max with the current hardware?

Will there be a new SSD module coming to replace the RedFlash Module for current R1 units, or is everything being designed for exclusive use in the new Epic brains?

 

[Steven Caesare]

Yes, its called the CABOOSE EFFECT.


...

Filmout with VFX = RC250 (read: most want as uncompressed as possible)

DVD/WEB/TV = RC28 -RC42 all work wonderfully depending on the speed of your home MAC system. Laptop? Desktop? etc.

Man, relegating Redcode28-42 as only decent for DVD and below quality when it's already produced stunning 4K images for feature length movies seems like you are getting caught up in a numbers game, rather than assessing the quality.

I suspect RC250 will be vast overkill for most work.

-sc

 

[Humberto Rivera]

One Terabyte Memory Card

One Terabyte Memory Card

Sometimes Technologies advance by leaps and bounce, take a look at the bellow article: http://www.fdtimes.com/news/?p=1651 for the rest of the story.

“No, that’s not a misprint: One Terabyte Memory Card capable of FourK production. I almost fell out of my chair halfway through Sony’s pre-NAB presentation last week. Although accompanied by the disclaimer “Future Technology Demonstration,” this was a pivotal moment.”

Humberto Rivera

 

[Steven Caesare]

OK... you guys can go ahead and discuss all of this compression math stuff, as soon as someone tells me the actual size of the file... please!!! xP

Most of the comments have shown datarates assuming an aspect ratio of 2.0:1.

For 16x9 it's more like 212MB/sec (after 2.5:1 lossless compression)

-sc

 

[Steven Caesare]

Just curiosity and to understand this precisely, should term "mathematically lossless" be understood literally implying the compression map is an identity? That is, when an image is compressed and decompressed the result is precisely the same image one started from at the first place.

The other possible interpretation is that the map is not an identity but the difference between the original and decompressed image is within some accuracy tolerance related to the hardware and consequently one may consider the difference is meaningless?

Whatever is the case all this is hairsplitting when it comes captured images. But, I love to understand what my (forthcoming) equipments really do.

Mathematically lossless means an exact 1-to-1 preservation of the original data.

Think .zip file... the resulting Word doc inside is the exact same coming out as going in.

-sc

 

[Martin Stevens]

If the codec is lossless then you should be able to infinity
compress and decompress the file and always end with the
exact same image, pixel for pixel perfect.

I did not see Jim state anywhere that Redcode 250 was this
lossless 2.5 to 1 codec.

 

[BradWright]

Today... we tested EPIC dynamic range with the
All tests show 13.5 stops or greater.

For those that missed my post on another thread... EPIC has a REDCODE

Jim

Jim

What color temperature was the test conducted under? Daylight or Tungsten lighting?

 

[David Rasberry]

2/3" 3k 2:1 would run about 72MB/sec at 24fps 2.5:1 compression. Well within the upgraded Redcode 100 spec for the camera.

 

[fALk Gärtner]

As for people thinking about scarlet - for me it will be 1080p output for the foreseable future (backend not powerfull enough to do VFX in 4k anyway and delivery on web mostly) so with a scarlet S35 and a theoretical Redcode 100 (that hasn´t been confirmed for the S35 yet but I guess it might hold true) @ 5k recording downscaled to 1080p (2k so its less then half) should get you well within uncompressed territory if redcode 250 @ 5k is mathematically uncompressed already. Can´t wait to see how that keys (sorry for the fuzzy math I had it calculated at one point but lost that sheet - redecode 100@5k downrezed to 1080p was very close to true unkompressed)

I would suggest red put out some greenscreen footage for VFX houses to try out. Maybe even drag out a bluescreen as well as theoretically blue could be also back in the picture with these numbers.

Congrats and thanks RED for this achievement it is a delight to see this happening


Edit/Add:

Can somebody explain why a 2.5:1 is "mathematically uncompressed" doesn´t really get into my brain as usually 1:1 would be uncompressed in my book :/

Edit2:

I just answered my own question - we are talking about "Lossless Compression" - the 2.5 number is a bit vague then if you have very noisy or totally detailed footage (think forest with glittering leaves covering 100% of the picture) this doesn´t quite hold but yeah close enough I guess specially for green/bluescreen (big swathes of the same color) it will be just fine.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Today... we tested EPIC dynamic range with the following test systems:

1. DSC DX1-102db v1 OSG chart

2. Stouffer chart

3. Arri DRTC

All tests show 13.5 stops or greater.

For those that missed my post on another thread... EPIC has a REDCODE mathematically lossless compression option (2.5:1) that records to onboard SSD module (not to CF).

Lots of good news going into NAB.

Jim

Jim

Absolutely fantastic!!!