EPIC Dynamic Range...

[Gian Joon]

Great News Jim.
Can someone please demystify ONBOARD SSD!!!

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Great News Jim.
Can someone please demystify ONBOARD SSD!!!

It is as it says - an on Camera module with a built-in SSD recorder (Solid State)
Shock proof, Weather Proof, Fast Recording. Exciting .

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

When we're talking about higher frame rates, where will the bottleneck lie? In the data throughput or the ability of the camera to compress data at various levels? I'm wondering if 2.5:1 compression is more of a computational challenge than, say, 10:1 compression.

Wait, so it is 2.5:1 compression that is mathematically lossless?!?!

I inmediatelly assumed that this could not be the rate of compression and remain mathematically lossless, so I assumed that he was refering to an aspect ratio...

2.5:1?!?! Are you serious Jim? Really? Please clarify cause that sounds too good to be true! When is RED going to get their first technical Oscar?

How heavy is the uncompressed stream at 24fps? Can the brain keep up at 100 fps? Will all of this, or most of it, be revealed at NAB? Is there anything you can tell us now?

Backend is REDstation but it's important to remember that choosing the right REDcode rate for the right situations is key to a sensible workflow.

There's going to be a tendency to want to shoot at the highest redcode when a lower redcode is more valid and sensible.

There will be exceptions, but I think that RC50 will be more than enough for most situations.

I am no DP, but I would agree with Larry! Somewhere around there should be plenty for serious 5k productions. Now if you have oodles of budget, sure, shoot the whole darn thing in lossless, but there will be no point in doing so other than perhaps for chroma, DFN, etc... correct?

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Wait, so it is 2.5:1 compression that is mathematically lossless?!?!

I inmediatelly assumed that this could not be the rate of compression and remain mathematically lossless, so I assumed that he was refering to an aspect ratio...

2.5:1?!?! Are you serious Jim? Really? Please clarify cause that sounds too good to be true! When is RED going to get their first technical Oscar?

Lagarith Lossless codec offers roughly 4:1 on average for demanding video. In fact, for black/white sequences, I have noticed 10:1 or greater, with credits being more like 100:1. Overall, 5:1 sounds about right. And it is 100% lossless, free, and available online. Of course, it isn't really a capture format! 13.5 stops at the price level, however, is damn near worthy of a technical Oscar.

 

[Jarred Land]

Very good points. I'm hoping that REDstation expands to faster connections than SATA... things like SAS and USB 3.0 [when it matures]. As data rates increase more and more there will be increased demand for faster transfer speeds. The laptop will be a thing of the past for loading quite soon...

When USB 3.0 is ready ( specially on the mac ) ... so will REDSTATION. That is part of the whole modular concept.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Could someone describe what a wavelet artifact looks like?

Think a noise reduction algorithm like neat or peach noise reduction turned too high.

----

Now when you say "Onboard SSD" do you mean a module or does it have to be attached directly to the brain?

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Lagarith Lossless codec offers roughly 4:1 on average for demanding video. In fact, for black/white sequences, I have noticed 10:1 or greater, with credits being more like 100:1. Overall, 5:1 sounds about right. And it is 100% lossless, free, and available online. Of course, it isn't really a capture format! 13.5 stops at the price level, however, is damn near worthy of a technical Oscar.

Thank you Sub. Yea, I wouldn't know what might take it but I figured it is just a matter of time for them to earn them one. Perhaps everything everyone ever wanted put together into one camera could do the trick?

So 2.5:1 is the compression ratio, perhaps not so aggressive because of storage being so big and so that cheaper gear can deconstruct it?

What is the size of 12-bit RAW at 5k? Please, someone, I just want to know how big the files will be. How does this go? 12 bytes x resolution? Can't be that simple...

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

So 2.5:1 is the compression ratio, perhaps not so aggressive because of storage being so big and so that cheaper gear can deconstruct it?

2x-3x is ambitious for lossless normal footage. I imagine that's nearly as far as it can be compressed.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

OK... you guys can go ahead and discuss all of this compression math stuff, as soon as someone tells me the actual size of the file... please!!! xP

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

EPIC has a REDCODE mathematically lossless compression option (2.5:1)

Just curiosity and to understand this precisely, should term "mathematically lossless" be understood literally implying the compression map is an identity? That is, when an image is compressed and decompressed the result is precisely the same image one started from at the first place.

The other possible interpretation is that the map is not an identity but the difference between the original and decompressed image is within some accuracy tolerance related to the hardware and consequently one may consider the difference is meaningless?

Whatever is the case all this is hairsplitting when it comes captured images. But, I love to understand what my (forthcoming) equipments really do.

 

[Gabe Conroy]

Just curiosity and to understand this precisely, should term "mathematically lossless" be understood literally implying the compression map is an identity? That is, when an image is compressed and decompressed the result is precisely the same image one started from at the first place.

The other possible interpretation is that the map is not an identity but the difference between the original and decompressed image is within some accuracy tolerance related to the hardware and consequently one may consider the difference is meaningless?

Whatever is the case all this is hairsplitting when it comes captured images. But, I love to understand what my (forthcoming) equipments really do.

I recall them previously referring to Redcode as being "visually lossless", but mathematically lossy, so I'm pretty sure this "mathematically lossless" means the image is literally exactly the same, not just perceptually the same.

 

[Rick Burnett]

So with this onboard SSD, will you have to transfer it with firewire or USB out of the camera or will it be removable in some way?

Further down this same thought pattern, have you considered using both SSD and a CF module? When the camera is not filming you could have it offloading the SSD on the CF as an option. That way, for some situations like non-live events, you can keep the SSD relatively empty for long days.

Just a thought anyways

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

He said "onboard SSD module", which I take to mean another module that accepts a form of SSD media. Hey, you know, like those RED MAG 128GB thingies we've all seen in the renders. So I'm ASSuming, you record to those, pop them off/out of the camera and plug it into the correct module on your RED STATION and away you go.

 

[Vico Martin]

He said "onboard SSD module", which I take to mean another module that accepts a form of SSD media. Hey, you know, like those RED MAG 128GB thingies we've all seen in the renders. So I'm ASSuming, you record to those, pop them off/out of the camera and plug it into the correct module on your RED STATION and away you go.

...or, a internal memory that allows you to change the reel without loosing frames (like this big xdcam).

Anyway 2.5 to 1 it´s amazing but what file size, 50Mbs??. 13.5 Stops sounds like Graeme push the noise floor to saturn

Congrats Team!

 

[Vico Martin]

and a B30 relase for NAB too pleeeease... :cheers2:

 

[Emmanuel Decarpentrie]

OK... you guys can go ahead and discuss all of this compression math stuff, as soon as someone tells me the actual size of the file... please!!! xP

If I'm not mistaken, it's about 190MB/s for 5K@24fps, assuming a 2:1 picture ratio.

So a 128GB SSD mag would last about 11 minutes...

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

If I'm not mistaken, it's about 190MB/s for 5K@24fps, assuming a 2:1 picture ratio.

So a 128GB SSD mag would last about 11 minutes...

Thank you!!

So 190MB/s for uncompressed or already divided by 2.5?

And will there be the need for some sort of hardware acceleration for the decompression before feeding the Rocket? And if so, is that what Deanan and Brook were referring to?

Backend is REDstation

Or were they just talking about off-loading the SSDs? There is other hardware that lets you plug in SSDs out there I am sure, so I am assuming they are talking about hardware acceleration for the decompression step... but I thought RedStation was just a very fancy (fast and reliable) CF-card module type tool... maybe it is WAY fancier than I imagined and it does a whole lot more than that?

 

[Nick Shaw]

I'm guessing Red's SSDs will be SSD based modules designed for repeated docking, not just bare SSDs. Hence the need for RedStation to download.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I'm guessing Red's SSDs will be SSD based modules designed for repeated docking, not just bare SSDs. Hence the need for RedStation to download.

Oh, so like an SSD enclosed in a more durable casing with tougher contact surfaces... good point. This would make Deanan's comment a bit more likely to mean just for off-loading.

The question still stands. Will there be the need for hardware acceleration for the decompression step?

I am trying to figure out if shooting/posting a nice chunk of lossless sequences is within the reach of a project geared and budgeted for RedCode.

 

[Nick Shaw]

I think if Red follow their current philosophy, it will be possible to decode in software only, but it will just be slow. So a Rocket will be very useful.

So 190MB/s for uncompressed or already divided by 2.5?

My calculations for 5120x2560 12 bit RAW 24fps come to 450MB/s uncompressed, so 180MB/s compressed 2.5:1.